About
About Flu Wiki
How To Navigate
New? Start Here!
Search FW Forum
Forum Rules
Simple HTML I
Simple HTML II
Forum Shorthand
Recent Active Diaries
RSS Feed

Search




Advanced Search


Flu Wiki Forum
Welcome to the conversation Forum of Flu Wiki

This is an international website intended to remain accessible to as many people as possible. The opinions expressed here are those of the individual posters who remain solely responsible for the content of their messages.
The use of good judgement during the discussion of controversial issues would be greatly appreciated.

Swine Flu Strain not as Deadly?

by: SusanC

Sat May 02, 2009 at 08:44:46 AM EDT


"What we have found by looking very carefully at the sequences of the new H1N1 virus is that we do not see the markers for virulence that we're seeing in the 1918 virus."

Dr Nancy Cox, Director, CDC Influenza Division, May 1 2009 press briefing

SusanC :: Swine Flu Strain not as Deadly?
Thus far, the CDC has done an exemplary job in keeping the public informed by detailed daily press briefings.  Yesterday, Dr Nancy Cox, director of CDC's Influenza Division and world-class expert on seasonal and pandemic flu, took part in the briefing and answered journalists questions.  The full transcript is available here and is well worth reading.  The comment quoted above, has prompted journalists to report that the swine flu virus may not be as deadly as feared.

Here's what came out in the Chicago Tribune today:

Swine flu: Strain not as deadly as suspected
Health officials downshift response as first cases confirmed in Illinois

On a day when federal health officials confirmed the first cases of swine flu in Illinois, it also seemed clearer to health officials Friday that this strain of flu wasn't becoming the killer once feared, and the state's reaction to the outbreak downshifted in response.

The flu chief for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Dr. Nancy Cox, said Friday the latest swine flu virus lacked traits that made the 1918 pandemic strain so deadly.

Local emergency room staffs were told to employ a new swine flu testing policy: Don't do it so much. Doctors had new guidelines for prescribing anti-viral drugs: Save them for people with underlying medical conditions, and use them within 48 hours of symptoms, when they would do the most good.

More http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

While it may be true that the current virus does not have the same mutations as the 1918 one, the devil, as always, is in the details.  Here are 2 reasons to be cautious about thinking this virus is not so virulent.

  1. Our knowledge about the characteristics of the 1918 virus is based on samples taken from the fall of 1918, ie the 'second wave' of that pandemic.  (For the full story of how scientists found and re-constructed the genetic code of the 1918 virus, read Searching for the 1918 Killer)  Because the first wave was mild, very few people died, and far fewer autopsy samples are available.  Which means that we actually do not know whether the 1918 virus already had those 'virulence markers' that they found in the second wave, or whether these mutations only happened afterwards and were responsible for the change in severity.  

    Comparing the current virus to the second wave virus of 1918, actually does not tell us much about whether it will become more virulent later.

  2. The second question is, how predictive are these known 'virulence markers'?  Do all viruses, or even do all H1N1 viruses, use the same mutations to adapt to a new host and cause disease?  To answer this question, scientists at Jeffery Taubenberger's lab at the NIAID recently completed a very interesting study.  Different evolutionary trajectories of European avian-like and classical swine H1N1 influenza A viruses

    To understand what they did, and found, here's a bit of background.  In the fall of 1918, the H1N1 virus that was causing such deadly infections in humans, started to infect pigs.  It became established in pigs, and had since circulated among pigs all over the world.  This swine H1N1 is called 'classical swine flu'.

    In 1979, an avian H1N1 virus, that had so far only circulated in birds, started infecting pigs in Europe.  The virus was transmitted among pigs, and started another lineage of swine flu in Europe, called the Eurasian swine H1N1.  

    So these are 2 different swine H1N1s, both came from birds (although the classical one had a human intermediate host), and both switched host species without reassortment.  This creates the perfect opportunity, to observe what happens to avian viruses when they switch to a mammalian host.  We know that they would mutate to adapt, but would they use the same mutations? Here's what they found:

    ABSTRACT:
    In 1979 a lineage of avian-like H1N1 influenza A virus emerged in European swine populations independently from the 'classical' swine H1N1 virus lineage that had circulated in pigs since the 'Spanish' influenza pandemic of 1918. To determine whether these two distinct lineages of swine-adapted A/H1N1 viruses have evolved in similar ways, as might be expected given their common host species and origin from avian-like A/H1N1 ancestors, we compared patterns of nucleotide and amino acid change in whole genome sequences of both groups. An analysis of nucleotide compositional bias across all 8 genomic segments for the two swine lineages showed a clear lineage-specific bias, although a segment-specific effect was also apparent. As such, there only appears to be a relatively weak host-specific selection pressure. Strikingly, despite each lineage evolving in the same species host for decades, amino acid analysis revealed little evidence for either parallel or convergent changes. These findings suggest that although adaptation due to evolutionary lineages can be distinguished, there are functional and structural constraints on all gene segments, and that the evolutionary trajectory of each lineage of swine A/H1N1 virus has a strong historical contingency. Thus, in the context of emergence of an influenza A virus strain via a host-switch event, it is difficult to predict what specific polygenic changes are needed for mammalian adaptation.


So there you have it.  "it is difficult to predict what specific polygenic changes are needed for mammalian adaptation."

Tags: (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
I guess the short answer is
it's too early to tell.  We won't know till we know.  ;-/



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


Excellent post!
A question: what are the CFR's for American and Eurasian swine flu viruses in swine?  Are they about the same?

[ Parent ]
I have no idea
Sorry.  I spent the past few years learning about avian flu, and about 1 week learning about swine flu!  LOL!

But I don't think there has to be a correlation, in virulence when a virus jumps species.  



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Tony Fauci is saying the same
on the NPR interview.  http://www.npr.org/templates/s...

"inject a word of caution"

each virus in adapting to a host, has "different complex interaction with regards to whether it could cause disease or spread"



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


Osterholm
tell the truth, we don't know what is going to happen.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
human2swine in 1918 ?
I think it was the other way round and the virus probably went
from birds to pigs <1915 and then from pigs to humans in 1918

...as it did in 2009...

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
that is not the conclusion
from the work of Jeff Taubenberger.  He's pretty clear that it's the other way round.  



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
reference
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g...



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
not as deadly ...
Susan, how long do you think the H1N1 is contagious?   Older information said 7 days adults and potentially longer shedding time in children.  But the illness lasts longer than 7 days so does that mean as in a bacterial infection treated with antibiotics, that symptoms are not necessarily contagious?  

[ Parent ]
I believe the science says
that in general flu is most contagious around the onset of symptoms, and that kids shed virus for longer than adults.  Beyond that, I don't think anyone has data on this specific virus, cos no one has done the work.  So it's guesswork based on similarity with seasonal flu.  There's no reason to expect it to be different.  



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
the unpredictable nature of viruses
Thank you for that. You've answered many questions I had regarding this subject.  

you're welcome n/t




All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
markers of virulence
when it lacks the "markers of virulenc" but can go pandemic nevertheless,
that seems to be bad news.

It has the option, the potential to acquire those markers later...

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


yes, exactly what I (and others) are worried about
easily transmissible and mild (and therefore transmitting under the radar), then adapting later.

I look at the genes, and think of the 3 pandemics in the 20th century, the 2 milder ones were both caused by a human-avian reassortant, with at least 5 human adapted genes from the circulating seasonal flu.  This one has only 1 gene of human origin, and that switched into swine like 20+ years ago.

All this would still have been ok, cos you often get mild infections even with pure swine or avian viruses, like H9N2.  But what makes it scary is the age of the fatalities in Mexico.  I always think that the W-shaped mortality from 1918 was not due to any pre-existing immunity in other age groups or whatever, but because that specific age group have a unique immune response that destroys lung tissue and make them prone to secondary infections.

Now we have another H1N1, and we are seeing possibly the same mortality pattern at least in one country.  Makes me think there's some unique virus-host interaction contributing to that pattern.  It's very likely the same interaction also contributes to high mortality in and of itself.

Just speculating, of course.  I think the 'mild' wave is probably a correct observation, outside of Mexico.  What happens in the fall is a whole different ballgame.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
H1N1 Transmissible from Humans to pigs. Pigs have H5N1.
yes, exactly what I (and others) are worried about easily transmissible and mild (and therefore transmitting under the radar), then adapting later.

In addition to the potential of H1N1 evolving on its own into a more virulent virus, we also have the increased frequency of it infecting a host that is simultaneously a infected by H5N1.

As H1N1 Human Swine flu spreads through regions of the world where pigs have been shown to have H5N1, doesn't this increase the odds that a "humanized" virus (H1N1) could combine with H5N1?

(We think we have trouble explaining how "swine flu" can infect people.  Imagine trying to explain how "bird flu" can infect pigs and could combine with a "swine flu" that a pig caught from a human to produce a potentially highly virulent "human flu". Gaaaaaa.)

ITW(Joel J)
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear.
- Mark Twain
 


[ Parent ]
If nothing happens in the Fall?
Susan,

So if no large outbreak of H1N1 happens in the fall of 2009 will there still be this looming threat? Will we by then (say Spring of 2010 or Fall of 2010) have enough info and treatment and possibly enough immunity for this to not be a threat anymore and we can go back to our concern about H5N1 or another possible type? Will this continue to haunt us or become part of the seasonal flu vaccine?

I know this calls for MUCH speculation on your part.. but it would be interesting to know what you think might be possible scenarios for the future if this (hopefully) dies out.

Thanks! Heidi in MN
(Having no science knowledge I find all of your posts very informative!)


it's really hard to say
Let's look at the historical experience of new flu virus emergence.  The 3 pandemics we already know about, they resulted in waves and the new virus taking over from the seasonal flu strains.

The only time that a 'novel' flu virus emerged into humans, became widely circulated, but did NOT become the dominant strain was the re-emergence of the current seasonal H1N1 in 1977, widely regarded as having come from a lab.  It caused waves of disease in those born after 1957 (since they had zero immunity to H1 viruses, which disappeared in 1957).  But this virus did not cause disease in older people, and has since co-circulated with H3N2, probably because it really was just a re-emergence of an old seasonal virus, frozen in time in a lab, and it wasn't very 'novel' in comparison to other pandemics or the current outbreak.  

This current swine H1N1, although you can trace part of the genes to human-adapted viruses, really is mostly not human-adapted at all.  So it's hard to see how with its ability for efficient transmission, that it will disappear for no particular reason.  

Whether it will co-circulate is hard to say.  At least one source http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sc... suggests that it probably took over from the seasonal strains in Mexico

Q: Does this one scare you?

R.D.: I saw figures that do scare you. We've received 300 samples from Mexico, and these cover the span of February, March, and April. And you look at flu A, traditionally it's A/H1 or A/H3 or it's B up until the end of March. There are two or three cases up to [the] last days of March that are swine. Then in April they skyrocket. So all the cases in the D.F. areas, where most samples came from, it really transmits very efficiently.

As for H5N1, it is still a threat.  This new outbreak doesn't change the risk for H5 IMO



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Interesting
Thank you so much for the response. I appreciate it =)

[ Parent ]
you're welcome n/t




All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
like a cold
swine flu just feels like a cold, nothing to worry about
says an English schoolgirl who had it

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
yeah the problem is in the second wave n/t




All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
how bout finishing the first wave?
the peak in the US should come in 2-4 weeks.

Tell the truth

[ Parent ]
it's going to finish whatever we do
The virus will come and go, but what we do depends on how we assess the situation.  I tend to look at the big picture, ie when this pandemic is all over, say in 1-2 years time, how well did we do overall?  

There's still a lot to be done, a lot of people who need to prepare.  This first wave can serve as a wake-up call, or it can serve those who think this is all hype.  It's hard to predict which POV will prevail.  ;-p



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
So, should we do anything different to prep for the 2nd wave?
I'm kind of curious to see what others are thinking ...

[ Parent ]
Ignore Govt Advice That Fails to Advise Preparing nt


ITW(Joel J)
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear.
- Mark Twain
 


[ Parent ]
watch this virus and think ahead
also, what ITW said.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Watch and learn . . .
Watch the virus, oh my yes.  Every day.  Watch this virus, and other ones as well.  H5N1 has not gone away.

Don't ignore what the gov't says, though - listen to it and learn from it as well - you have to know what they are saying in order to best take the contrarian approach.

Don't ignore the gov't - but don't do what they say, either.
The old adage . . . "Know your enemy" applies.  The gov't may not perceive itself to be the enemy of the common man, but hardly think they could ever act in our best interests if such action interferes with what they perceive to be their best interests.


[ Parent ]
let it be
it's mild currently. Remember 1918.
It's a new flu-A virus which is capable to cause epidemics.
It won't go away. It will mutate and reassort.
See history, what happened to new flu-A viruses.
Real infection is better for our immunity than vaccine.
And vaccine has a 6 month's delay.
It may wipe out the current H3N2 and the current H1N1.
Shouldn't we better let it run through the world now
and build immunity before it becomes worse ?

Ask this question to the experts !
We should do this discussion now.  

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
The problem with that idea is
That we can't be assured that it would be immunity we would be building - we could be building mortality figures.


[ Parent ]
see, gs, you are coming to the same conclusions
Shouldn't we better let it run through the world now
and build immunity before it becomes worse ?

or at least the same questions as many of us have.  LOL



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
too many posts
sorry, I can't read all the posts
and then there are other boards, blogs,
...and real life

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
Not Mild really
Its mild if you do not have health problems like being pregnant!

so many people have underlying health problems. The virus is not mild if you are between 15 and 45.

What are they going to do when the peak comes and millions of people in every country are all flat on their backs with a "mild" flu?

What are they going to do when WHO moves to 6?

If WHO does not move to 6 they will be completely discredited, ignoring their own directive.

This response is a disgrace.
I am ashamed.

Tell the truth


[ Parent ]
WHO phase 6
has nothing to do with severity.  It has to do with presence of ongoing transmission in > 1 WHO regions.  You and I may disagree with WHO (I happen to think there IS transmission in Europe to justify phase 6), but whether or not they change to 6, has very little implication for the US, cos the virus is already widespread.  The PH response there is not and should not be dependent on whether they change to 6.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
declining now ?
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/previe...

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
that's Mexico, though n/t




All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
counts
daily Mexico counts: 156,397,506,590,822,1112

could it be, that CDC is trying to mislead us ?


ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
delay
it takes a while after onset until cases
appear in that statistics, still they say,
there were a decline:

> Both confirmed and suspected cases rose sharply from
> April 19 to April 26, then decreased sharply.  

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
pb1-f2
it might reassort with seasonal flu and pick PB1 with PB1-F2

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies


[ Parent ]
Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?



Active Users
Currently 0 user(s) logged on.

Contact
  DemFromCT
  pogge
  Bronco Bill
  SusanC (emeritus)
  Melanie (In Memoriam)

  Flu Wiki (active wiki resource)
  How To Add To Flu Wiki
  Get Pandemic Ready (How To Start Prepping)
  Citizen's Guide v 2.0
  Effect Measure
  Dude's FTP

Home
Powered by: SoapBlox