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Adjuvants and Pathogenesis of Autoimmune Disease I - Overview

by: SusanC

Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 23:10:39 PM EDT


At a recent FDA advisory committee meeting to discuss their approach to swine flu vaccines, the GSK representative, guy called Bruce Innis, said:

I think all the manufacturers have presented data that shows that the effects of the adjuvants are limited in time, limited to the space where it is injected and in the draining lymph nodes. They don't have widespread activation of the immune response, and there isn't plausibility that they would activate autoimmunity in organs separate from the muscle where they are injected.

Is he right?  There are 2 (non-exclusive) ways to find out.  One is to go through the meeting transcripts and see if they did present such data (I did, and they didn't).  The other is to take a look at the science.  

SusanC :: Adjuvants and Pathogenesis of Autoimmune Disease I - Overview
This is important because

Vaccines are unique medicinal products in that even single doses.....could lead to a prolonged pharmacodynamic effect (i.e. life-long immunity) through the generation of immune memory

No other medicinal product has such a prolonged pharmacodynamic effect. 1

The single biggest concern about the safety of adjuvants used to enhance the immune response for vaccines, is the risk of excessive immunostimulation resulting in autoimmune disease in susceptible individuals.  How would that happen?  Before we go into more detailed mechanisms, let me first outline a few key concepts about our immune system, that are critical to understanding the effects of adjuvants.

The immune system is a network, not a hierarchy.

The immune system is:

  • complex - involves a large number of cells, organs, and molecules

  • networked - every part is connected to every other part through the circulation of cells and molecules through the tissues and organs, via the ciruclatory and lymphatic systems, and through transmission of signals between cells (which we will talk a great deal about)

  • decentralized - unlike the nervous system (which has the brain) or the circulatory system (with the heart), there is no 'master organ' that controls or overrides the rest of the immune system.  

These 3 features in combination means that

Local events can have distant/systemic effects

Here are some examples:

  1. A flu vaccine given into a muscle induces an immune response which activates certain cells, some of which retain 'immunological memory' of the antigen.  These cells circulate through the body, so that next time when the flu virus enters say via the lungs, these 'memory cells' can start a strong, specific immune response at the respiratory tract membrane where the virus is.  

  2. A upper respiratory infection results in fever and headache not (necessarily) because the virus is in the blood or in your brain, but because in fighting the virus at the respiratory membrane, the cells of the immune system give off certain chemicals that act not just locally, but also move into the circulation and induce such 'systemic' effects.  

  3. Cells that are activated (for reasons that I'll get to later) to react towards self-antigens at a particular site, can migrate to other parts of the body where such self-antigens are also present, and trigger an autoimmune response.  A dramatic example of that can be found in the case of eye injury, in a condition called sympathetic ophthalmia.  Some antigens in the eyes are not normally exposed to the immune system.  When an injury occurs that causes these antigens to be released into the blood, an immune response starts which attacks not only the injured eye, but also the healthy one.
Squalene-induced arthritis in mice

In a series of experiments 2-5, scientists at the prestigious Karolinska Institute at Stockholm (where they decide who gets the Nobel Prize for medicine each year), injected squalene (among other oils, see chart below) into the tail of mice, inducing arthritis.

They found that squalene was mostly located in the injection site and the nearest lymph nodes (LNs) but not in the joints.  This of course (partly) echoes what GSK says, the only difference being the mice are definitely not ok - they were all suffering from the equivalent of rheumatoid arthritis in humans!  

btw There were also significant amounts of squalene in the spleen and liver - important for later discussions..

Next, the researchers took cells from the LNs of this first group of mice, and injected them into other mice that were not exposed to squalene, and discovered that they could transfer the arthritis to the second group of mice.  

Interestingly, while arthritis occurred in 100% of mice given cells from the LNs closest to the injection site (draining LNs), even cells from non-draining LNs were able to transfer arthritis to 50% of the mice.

What do these experiments tell us?  They show that adjuvants can have non-specific (ie unrelated to any antigen, since none were given here) effects that are not restricted to the injection site.  They also show that the adjuvant caused changes in the cells of the immune system (in the LNs) which were similarly able to induce disease in other mice.  

You can stop reading right here, if you want ;-D, because the above is already plenty enough IMO to debunk the misinformation from GSK.  But now that I got started (since I've done all that legwork, you know... lol) let's carry on, for our own education, GSK or no GSK...

The immune system is a product of evolution - and a work in progress.

You may have learned somewhere the concept of 'self' and 'non-self', that our immune system has evolved to defend against invaders while at the same time 'tolerating' our own 'self' tissues, ie not mount an immune response against them.  While the concept is important (more later), in reality, such differentiation is not hard-wired by default, but instead requires a large and varied set of processes running properly, to keep things from going awry.  

It's a bit like buying a PC - whereas Windows may come pre-installed and there are some functions that appear to run without you having to do anything, these functions are in reality a result of a variety of patches that those geeks at Microsoft came up with over the years - no doubt partly in response to irate customers!  In the same way, our immune system is not perfectly designed fresh out of the factory, but is a result of hundreds of millions of years of evolution, of adapting to challenges that our primordial ancestors encountered, and challenges that we still encounter today.  

Just as the latest bestest version of Windows still has bugs in it because no one has come up with the magic patch that fixes everything - indeed patches often create new problems while solving old ones - our immune system is similarly 'buggy', which is why problems like allergy, autoimmune diseases, cancer etc, are so common!  The sum total effect of a particular immune response depends on a delicate balance between many processes each of which may pull or push towards one endpoint rather than another.  When the balance is tipped or skewed towards an undesirable effect, disease happens.  

As you will see later, the definition of 'undesirable' depends on the circumstances...

There is only one immune system

Compared to other areas of the medical sciences, immunology is a relatively young and evolving discipline.  Our understanding of immunology is/was dependent on the technology available.  When viewed at the level of the organism (ie human) as a whole, the self vs non-self hypothesis offers a simple functional account of how things work.  But as immunology advanced to a point where we can now hone in to mechanisms at the subcellular and even molecular level, we discover that the hypothesis breaks down.  One of the most important concepts that emerged in recent years, is that at the most fundamental level, the immune system offers the same process for different types of triggers, whether they are exogenous substances, infectious agents, vaccination, self-antigens, or tumor antigens.  

In other words, how our immune system responds to an antigen is not primarily dependent on whether it is self or non-self - eg our body regularly 'tolerates' such non-self agents as commensal bacteria in the gut, environmental pollutants, and the growing fetus in pregnancy.  Note that the first one is beneficial, the second one is toxic, and the third, well, desirable!  

Mounting an immune response to otherwise 'innocuous' substances such as pollen or cow's milk protein is the basis of allergy.   Mounting an immune response to self tissues can result in autoimmunity.  But there are times when we want our immune system to respond to self-antigens, eg to stop the growth of cancer cells.  The following table 6 illustrates whether an immune response is beneficial depends on circumstances.

But what determines the outcome, then, if it isn't self vs non-self?  

According to Silverstein 7:

All potential immunogens are recognized by the system using the same set of 'rules', without discrimination between 'self' and 'nonself' or between the 'toxic' and the 'benign'. In every response, whether positive or negative, the factors mobilized and the balance between protection and damage depend upon the quality, quantity, location, and timing of immunogen presentation, as well as upon properties of the host.

That last statement, is central to our understanding of immunology, and the utility and potential hazards of vaccine adjuvants.  

Genetics play a big role

In the context of adjuvants and autoimmunity, the most important 'property of the host' is the presence or absence of genetic susceptibility to autoimmune diseases.  This is very important and I can't emphasize it enough.  Even in animal experiments like the ones described above, the results are dramatically different depending on the strain of mice used.  That said, I don't think we need to go further into details of genetics, for now, except to remember that it is important.  

With all these concepts in place, we are now ready, in the next diary, to explore (in a hugely simplified way) the actual immune response itself.  We will see how the characteristics of the microenvironment in which the immune response takes place affect the outcome.  Which is exactly why adjuvants are effective in enhancing immunogenicity against the vaccine antigen, but also why they can cause problems against self-antigens.

As a teaser, let me end with this quote 8:

Collectively, the secondary signaling necessary for induction of an autoimmune disease has been referred to as the adjuvant effect.


References:

  1. Brennan FR, Dougan G. Non-clinical safety evaluation of novel vaccines and adjuvants: new products, new strategies. Vaccine. 2005 May 2;23(24):3210-22. PudMed

  2. Carlson BC, Jansson AM, Larsson A, Bucht A, Lorentzen JC. The endogenous adjuvant squalene can induce a chronic T-cell-mediated arthritis in rats. Am J Pathol. 2000 Jun;156(6):2057-65.  PubMed

  3. Holm BC, Lorentzen JC, Bucht A. Adjuvant oil induces waves of arthritogenic lymph node cells prior to arthritis onset. Clin Exp Immunol. 2004 Jul;137(1):59-64. PubMed

  4. Holm BC, Svelander L, Bucht A, Lorentzen JC. The arthritogenic adjuvant squalene does not accumulate in joints, but gives rise to pathogenic cells in both draining and non-draining lymph nodes. Clin Exp Immunol. 2002 Mar;127(3):430-5. PubMed

  5. Lorentzen JC. Identification of arthritogenic adjuvants of self and foreign origin.  Scand J Immunol. 1999 Jan;49(1):45-50.  PubMed

  6. Kenneth M. Murphy, Paul Travers, Mark Walport. Janeway's Immunobiology, Seventh Edition, 2008

  7. Silverstein AM, Rose NR. There is only one immune system! The view from immunopathology. Semin Immunol. 2000 Jun;12(3):173-8; PubMed

  8. Rose NR. The adjuvant effect in infection and autoimmunity. Clin Rev Allergy Immunol. 2008 Jun;34(3):279-82.PubMed
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a word about jargon
This is a series that I have wanted to write for months and months, but there were several barriers, one being time/physical contraints from health challenges.  The other big one, is the tremendous difficulty of trying to write concisely, coherently, and without jargon.  Immunology is a fascinating science (I'm hooked, probably even more than on virology!!) but there are many details which require significant specificity to describe.  

For example, there are a number of cell types that are critically important in our understanding, and I don't think you will understand unless I give them proper names and briefly describe their function and relevance.  Otherwise, it will be the equivalent of trying to tell a story that involves 5 girls without using their names but instead repeatedly referring to them as "the short one", "the one who's on the hockey team", "the blond one's sister" etc.  LOL!  I'm sure you would hate to read a story like that!  

I will try to keep technical words to a minimum, provide links where possible.  I may also compile a glossary, time permitting, as a quick reference for those who need it.  But I want to write at least one more diary first - it's likely to take a few more to explain all the interesting bits.  You can see it really is a work in progress.  LOL!!

Above all, I hope to make this interesting as well as easy to read.  That said, sometimes it's a bit hard to judge whether you have left some gaps, when you have immersed in a subject for so long.  So please do post comments and questions - I look forward to the conversation!!


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


there's a wonderful video lecture
A Paradigmatic Complex System: The Immune System, where an immunology professor explains immunology to an audience of mostly engineers at the 5th European Conference on Complex Systems.  

Description

The immune system provides accessible data about the evolution, the organizational operation and the end function of a complex system; immunology exemplifies the evolution, the organizational sociology and the end function of complex systems' research. I shall discuss select issues related both to the system and to the science that studies the system.

The system:

  • Evolution (from innate to adaptive immunity);
  • Organization (degeneracy of recognitions and interactions; pleiotropic and redundant agents);
  • End function (body protection or body maintenance).

The science:
  • Evolution (from clonal selection to systems biology; the quest for optimums);
  • Organization (molecular biology versus physiology);
  • End function (prevention and cure of disease).




All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


"people are treated with Vioxx for back pain, and out comes a heart attack" n/t



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
The immune system is "orders of magnitude more complex than the world wide web" n/t



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Thank you for writing this!
It is interesting to read.  I look forward to reading more.  
(sorry, nothing constructive to say, my brain is asleep now after hours outside scraping paint on my porch. :-/)

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

that's ok
it's hard to comment when you only have a snippet of the picture.  LOL


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
The following is cross-posted
from http://www.newfluwiki2.com/sho...

Just yesterday, a girl in the UK died after being given Cervarix, the GSK vaccine adjuvanted with AS04. We have heard time and again that 'association does not equal causation', but in this instance, when association is so intimately linked with vaccination, it's a lot harder to justify that it is unrelated to the vaccine.  We'll have to wait and see.

But the EVEN more important point is this: most adverse events, including severe life-long and life-threatening illness are not as clearly correlated in time to the vaccination. Clinical trials do not follow people for long enough, are conducted by industry and therefore subject to their 'screening' and selective reporting, and diseases that are previously not attributed to vaccines are by default not counted because they are deemed to be "unlikely to be related" (see the circular logic??).  

Which leaves us the only other source of data, post-marketing adverse event reporting.  But again, it is SO dependent on this temporal relationship (ie event correlated in time to vaccination) as a first hurdle to be considered in the minds of both physicians and the public, that sometimes as much as 99% of some serious but previously unknown adverse events are never reported.  


The reporting sensitivities of two passive surveillance systems for vaccine adverse events. S Rosenthal and R Chen.  National Immunization Program, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Sensitivities ranged from 72% for poliomyelitis after the oral poliovirus vaccinc to less than 1% for rash and thrombocytopenia after the MMR vaccine.

This applies to acute conditions but even more so for delayed events.  Also in the same paper:

Postlicensure drug evaluations have relied on passive surveillance systems to monitor adverse events. Such

systems are more practical and less expensive than controlled trials; however, their data are usually inadequate to determine causality.

In other words, there's only so much that clinical trials and adverse event monitoring can tell us.  Which is why we need a return to more solid science-based information. Just like the study of basic virology is important for our understanding of influenza and therefore how we can prepare for and respond to it, I would suggest that we desperately need to return to basics, to look at mechanisms and not blindly put our faith in clinical trials and postmarketing data.
As this article in Science, Epidemiology faces its limits says:
"So what does it take to make a study worth taking seriously?  Over the years, epidemiologists have offered up a variety of criteria, the most important of which are a very strong association between disease and risk factor, and a highly plausible biological mechanism."

In the absence of, or before there is enough data to establish the 'very strong association' between a particular vaccine and disease, we need to spend a lot more of our energy examining the biological mechanisms.  That is the biggest take-home lesson that I have, from these months and years of looking at adjuvant safety.  And why I'm (attempting) to put together a coherent description of the immunology of adjuvants, for the general public.  

                           


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


reason for focusing on mechanisms
Anybody who thinks clinical trials, as they are currently done and accepted by the FDA and EMEA, can give us clear ideas about safety, should read the recent FDA meeting transcripts on Cervarix.

Here's the thing.  There were signals that suggest increased autoimmune disease especially for neurological complications, and increased spontaneous abortion for pregnant women, but after a variety of ways of analyzing them, you can argue that none of the data is statistically significant.  The sheer number of ways of analyzing the data is a real eye-opener!!

Also, they used a large number of studies from all over the world.  On the surface, it may look like that larger numbers of study subjects will give you more information, but in reality it only serves to cloud the picture and/or cancel out signals.  For example, different studies used different controls (NONE of which was a true inert placebo), including alum, and 2 different concentrations of an alum-adjuvanted hepatitis B vaccine that is not normally given in the same schedule as the study.  And yet they 'pooled' all the controls for analysis.  

Comparing with heterogeneous groups of controls will have the tendency to either dilute the signals, or, if there is a signal, the range of variation is so high that the data becomes statistically meaningless.  Like this, from the transcripts:

In the meta-analysis, I believe for all events, for HPV ASO4 products, the relative risk was 2.33, but the lower bound was 0.5 and 13.97 upper bound.

How are you supposed to interpret this, a risk that varies from 0.5 to 13.97 - ie ranging between 50% reduced risk to 14 times increased risk??  Does this prove safety?  The committee voted yes.  To me it only proves how many different ways clinical trials data can be creatively interpreted...


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
I'm using this tragic incident
to demonstrate how understanding mechanisms of action may be informative and useful for risk-assessment.  We don't know what the girl died of, but is there a biological plausibility of causing such events, inherent in the vaccine itself?

Well, AS04 is made from alum and MPL, which is derived from bacterial endotoxin, a component of bacterial cell walls that is responsible, among other things, for septic shock.  Endotoxin is such a potent toxin that it has to be carefully removed from all parenteral pharmaceutical products.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...

In pharmaceutical production, it is necessary to remove all traces of endotoxin from drug product containers as even small amounts of endotoxin will cause illness in humans.

Read also this previous diary on the possible role of endotoxin in GBS for the 1976 vaccine.  http://www.newfluwiki2.com/dia...

GSK claims that MPL is a 'detoxified' form of endotoxin, and I'm sure they did detoxify it, but if you start with a very potent and dangerous substance, then you would need a very high level of purification and quality control, to make sure the end product does not contain even traces of the substance.  You would probably also need very precise assays to differentiate between the 'detoxified' form, ie as MPL, and the endotoxin itself.  

Otherwise, there's a risk that some batches of vaccines may have dangerously high levels of endotoxin, or high enough that inadvertent injection into the bloodstream can cause shock.  

That's what I mean by biologically plausible mechanisms.  Doesn't mean it's what happened, but substances that are inherently dangerous to start with, warrant a good deal more care and scrutiny than others.  And should not be treated casually as if they have a similar risk profile as other conventional vaccines.  JMHO.


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
I have a suspicion
a totally unsubstantiated hypothesis, that 'detoxified endotoxin' may be as much an oxymoron as low-tar cigarettes, which btw only took about 40 years for scientists to finally declare them unsafe...  


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
to complete the picture
it's being reported today that the girl had a massive tumor in her chest, and that her death was unlikely to be due to the vaccine.  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...

Losing a child is always difficult, no matter what the cause was.  My thoughts to the family...


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Syncope following Immunization Among Teenagers
I watched a very interesting archived continuing education presentation on Syncope following Immunization Among Teenagers.  This free presentation can be accessed here:
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/coca/con... . The CDC wants clinicans to be aware of the need to observe individuals for symptoms which could indicate the risk of syncope.  If I understand the presentations correctly  52% of reported episodes were associated with HPV vaccine and sixty one percent of the reports were female 11 to 18 hence the title of the presentation with an emphasis on teenagers.

I went to look at the package insert for the only vaccine approved in the US and found that the data for the control group includes a group that got AAHS Control = Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate see - http://www.merck.com/product/u... The vaccine also contains "aluminum-containing adjuvant (Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate)".

I am not sure what this means but thought it was important to share it with the group.  


yes, all the trials with the licensed HPV vaccines
used alum or alum-adjuvanted vaccines as controls, with the exception of a tiny 10% in Gardasil.  See comment here http://www.newfluwiki2.com/sho...


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Wow, that is some slide
the increase in syncope reports over time, and all due to HPV vaccine.  That is pretty scary.


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
here's the slide

cos a picture really is worth a thousand words.  Note that the increase in reporting is not just restricted to teenage girls.

Now, what is intriguing for me is, when I try to look up the data for the HPV vaccine in the UK (Cervarix), I found something quite extraordinary, thanks to Google..  When I searched for syncope and Cervarix, I came across this document, Patient Group Direction for the administration of HPV Vaccine (Cervarix®) in Halton and St Helens PCT, which said

Adverse reactions associated with the injection process (faints, syncope) should not be reported. See advice in the Green Book HPV Chapter www.dh.gov.uk/greenbook

Intrigued, I went and looked up the relevant chapter in the Green Book.  In the Chapter on HPV, I found the following instructions (bolding mine):

Reporting faints and panic attacks
Syncope (vasovagal reaction), or fainting, can occur during vaccination, most commonly amongst adolescents. Some individuals may also experience panic attacks before vaccination. The clinical features of fainting and panic attacks are described in detail in Chapter 8 of the Green Book.

Fainting and panic attacks occurring before or very shortly after vaccination are not usually direct side effects (adverse reactions) of the vaccine but events associated with the injection process itself.

Only reactions suspected to be related to the vaccine (and not those associated with the injection process) should be reported via the Yellow Card Scheme. Please report the main diagnosis only as the suspected reaction (i.e. 'vasovagal syncope', 'faint' or 'panic attack'). Any signs or symptoms associated with these events (such as loss of consciousness, limb jerking or tingling, shallow/difficulty in breathing, hyperventilation etc) should not be reported as the suspected reaction but, if necessary, as 'additional information' in the Yellow Card (or via www.yellowcard.gov.uk).



In essence, the UK government is telling healthcare professionals to NOT report any syncope or faints for the HPV vaccine.
 I also looked at the actual AEs reported.  Unfortunately, the system in the UK is not like VAERS, and you cannot get the raw data, only a summary report from the government.  The latest one on safety assessment of Cervarix, just published on Sep 24, 2009, lists 4657 AEs in 2137 reports, of which 1192 AEs in 455 reports (ie 25% of all AEs) were classified as 'psychogenic'  with this explanation (bolding in original):

C. 'Psychogenic' events
Psychogenic events including vasovagal syncope, faints and panic attacks can occur with any injection procedure, not just vaccination, and can be common in adolescents. These are due to fear and/or anticipation of the needle injection and are not side-effects of Cervarix vaccine as such. Such events can be associated with a wide range of temporary signs and symptoms including loss of consciousness, vision disturbance, injury, limb jerking (often misinterpreted as a seizure/convulsion), limb numbness or tingling, difficulty in breathing, hyperventilation etc.

The events in the list below were considered 'psychogenic' in nature based on MHRA assessment of the individual case details reported. The reported cases which do not refer specifically to vasovagal syncope, faint or panic attack (e.g. convulsion, transient blindness which refers to temporary loss of vision at the start of a faint) were concurrently reported as signs or symptom of the psychogenic event; i.e. these also were not side-effects of the vaccine itself.

The list, however, includes 140 different symptoms, including (for example) the following

  • loss of consciousness
  • convulsion
  • unresponsibe to stimuli
  • chest pain
  • heart rate irregular
  • eyes rolling
  • muscle twitching
  • visual impairment
  • muscle rigidity
  • confusional state
  • facial injury
  • grand mal convulsion
  • blood pressure decreased, etc etc

So, based on reading reports filed by, well, whoever filed them, UK government experts deemed 1 in 4 of AEs for Cervarix is psychogenic.  Now I look at the US data (chart above) and I ask myself, is it true that British girls have massive numbers of psychogenic types of syncope that are only related to the act of receiving an injection but not the vaccine? To test that hypothesis, I wanted to look at other vaccines that might be frequently given to adolescent girls and see if there is any difference.  The one I had in mind was the Group C Meningitis vaccines, but unfortunately, I couldn't find a similar kind of report for the meningitis vaccines (there are several) listing adverse events.  

Undaunted, I went back to look at the Green Book, to see if any similar kinds of instructions (ie telling HCWs to not report syncope) were given for the meningitis vaccines.  My rationale is, if syncope from the fear of needles is a common problem, it should be listed somehow in the information on any vaccine likely to be given to adolescents, right?  Or at least there shouldn't be a great deal of difference.

Here's what I found, in the Chapter on Meningitis C vaccines.  There was no mention of syncope or psychogenic events, and the only mention of fainting is in the adverse event section:

Neurological reactions such as dizziness, febrile/afebrile seizures, faints, numbness and hypotonia following MenC are very rare.

Part of what this demonstrates, for me, is the difficulty of making sense of data from AE reporting.  It's hard enough on a good day, without governments giving different instructions for different vaccines.  There's a part of me that feels sorry for the folks who work in the NHS, who have to keep following such micro-managed instructions, but to be honest, that is the LEAST of my concerns.  


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
I don't think I'll ever be a good epidemiologist.... n/t



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Is there any such thing as a meta-epidemiologist?
Someone who doesn't just believe what's on paper, but looks farther into the issues?  You've got that job already! lol.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

[ Parent ]
It makes me very sad, this stuff... n/t



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
I'm having a delayed reaction here
so, as I understand it, the US government accepts all reports without prejudgment of causal relationship, and when they find a possible link between syncope and HPV vaccine, they hold continuing education presentations to alert healthcare professionals so that they can look out for these AEs and prevent injuries.

In comparison, the UK government actively discourages healthcare professionals from reporting syncope, and, when such (and/or similar) AEs are reported, they count them as psychogenic.

Am I missing something here??


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Makes sense, but not enough data
Difficulty is that as long as no long time study data are available, any argument for or against the danger of adjuvants (and therefore the danger of a vaccination) is relatively mute.
In the end, every person has to make a personal decision whether they choose to vaccinate or not - still I would like to recall the discussion about acrylamides that bubbled up several years ago. Acrylamides have been shown to cause diseases in rats, however no obvious, clear-cut effect (at the doses find in foodstuffs) in man has yet been been described convincingly (so much about the usefulness of rat models). Acrylamides are found in fried food (potato chips, fries, pizza...). Now, several years after the first sensational reports by a Swedish research team, hardly anybody is concerned about acrylamides anymore. Remember, acrylamides are found in foodstuffs that all of us eat day by day, and which could easily be circumvented if we wanted to... they are not even add-ins of a potentially life-saving vaccination. The point being that without good, solid long term data available, it may be better NOT to focus on a few hypothetical and individual cases where people MAY have come to harm due to adjuvants - it would be better to determine how many lives can be rescued through the respective vaccinations. I for one will get the vaccination as soon as it is available (also as I seem to react very strongly to the usual yearly flu as well - don't want to be done in by this one).

you're right the problem lies in not enough data
but there our agreements stop.  ;-)  First let's look at the differences between acrilamide and vaccine adjuvants.  One is ingested, the other is injected.  There are reams of evidence that substances that are safe to eat are not safe to be injected.  Just think of milk - do you think it's safe to inject it into your body?  Why not?  Because the safety of what goes in your stomach and what goes in through a needle needs to be considered by totally different standards - any comparisons between food and parenteral administration is simply not valid.

Second, there is a difference between a by-product that happens to be there, that may or may not be dangerous, and a pharmacologically and immunologically active substance that is put in there on purpose for a specific outcome, which is to enhance a strong immune response.  The question that I have is not whether we should have vaccines that can produce more protective responses; I'm 100% in favor of that.  The query that I have is, do we have the ability to control the upper limit of this immune stimulation?  

Third, and related to the above, acrilamide may or may not have effects on our body cells.  Adjuvants are KNOWN to have a wide range of effects. Such knowledge has existed for decades and continue to accumulate.  The knowledge is in the public domain, but difficult for the lay reader.  The purpose of this series of diaries is not to persuade anyone about any vaccine, but to explore the mechanisms of action of adjuvants, to bring people up to some level of knowledge so they can assess what vaccine companies tell them.  In other words, to level the playing field, albeit to a very small degree.

Finally, I will say something that I have said and I will say over and over and over if I need to.  And that is, the fact that vaccinations save lives does not remove the need for us to improve their safety.  The 2 questions are not mutually exclusive.  In fact, I would argue BECAUSE vaccines are so crucial for saving lives, then we have a duty to make sure that they can be made as safe as possible, given the science as we know it.  

In other words, we cannot make vaccines, or anything, 100% safe.  Nor can we speculate about unknown risks that there's no science to support, that we won't know about till maybe 30 years from now.  But the POINT of this series (which I apologize for being very slow in putting together, which is why some of you may not see the point) - the point of this series is, there already IS a lot of science to suggest that these substances can be problematic for a small but significant proportion of the population.  

I believe that these people should have the right to understand how these things can affect them.  I believe everyone has the right to try and determine if any of this poses risks to them and their family.  I believe in knowledge and empowerment and the right of individuals to personal autonomy. I do not believe ignorance is bliss, when there is such a huge imbalance of power/knowledge between powerful industries and the public.


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
you don't need to look any further
for that imbalance of power and knowledge, than what the GSK guy said at the recent FDA meeting on H1N1 vaccine, as quoted above in the top diary.  A remark that went on the record, but that 99.999% of the public never get to know about, evaluate, or rebut.  A remark that is blatantly untrue.  They know it, the FDA knows it, the NIH knows it.  Don't take my word for it.  Read the FDA/NIAID adjuvant meeting transcripts from last December.  I did, all 900 pages of them, some more than once.  

This whole subject has bothered me for the past few years.  It has been and continues to be difficult to write about.  Many times I wanted to walk away from it.  But having sat in that meeting and others like it, listening to such blatant misrepresentation, again and again I find that I cannot look myself in the mirror knowing what I know, and not try and share some of it.  


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Empowerment - yes, but öet's focus on the issue at hand!
SusanC, I understand the points that you are making. Challenge is that I arrived in this forum from the Flu Wiki. And on that wiki it says: "The purpose of the Flu Wiki is to help local communities prepare for and perhaps cope with a possible influenza pandemic [...]" That is the kind of information that I am looking for. Now, I can accept that for you, vaccination adjuvants may be an important topic (altho I still think that your arguments are very circumstantial), yet, this wiki and its forum should focus solely on the pandemic(s) that come in our direction in the next few decades. And these pandemics are very worrisome and will happen. What worries me most are some of the statistics that I read. For instance, in several Western European countries >70% of the people have indicated that they don't plan to get a vaccination at all. 70%! And the main reasons that these people mention are "I'm not worried" "I don't care" "I don't know what H1N1 or swine flu is" and... "Vaccinations are dangerous"!!
As people of science, we must keep the people focused on the true danger. Get vaccinated! In this light, and this is NOT a 'scientific' observation, I just read the novel "Two Journeys" (author Clemens Suter - isbn 1439250138), which describes a world devoid of people, as caused by a pandemic / epidemic by a viral infection. After I read it, I was convinced that vaccination and any other precaution are essential, as well as battling the ignorance of some and the helping the less knowlegable to act swiftly and make the right decision... This is the risk that we are running into: people defocus from what is really important. Anyone that reads Two Journeys must immediately understand the big pictuire, Suter does it good job to make it jump straight into the reader's eyes.
So, my wish is that this wiki and forum focuses on the problem at hand: the upcoming pandemic((s)), caused by new viruses, that spread rapidly in modern society, due to high increase in population & travel. The discussion about adjuvants should be moved to a separate wiki "wiki.adjuvants" --> it may be an important topic, but let's first make sure that not too many die and suffer because of a viral attack... and discussions that diffuse the challenge that we are currently confronted with. No need to panic - but let's solve this!

[ Parent ]
vaccines are part of the issue at hand
And separate wikis are what diaries, or threads as they are called in other places, are for.

You're concerned that people who would benefit from a vaccine will not get it if they get the wrong information.

I'm afraid it goes the other way round too, if indeed adjuvanted vaccines happen to be less safe than we'd wish to.

It may also be the case that vaccines are more justified for some people than for others, and that's also part of the information we need.  Apparently, pregnant women's risk of death is 4-5 times higher than general risk.  What's the risk for other conditions?  I haven't liked it when people, TPTB, created lists of potential groups to be vaccinated, and readers thought those groups were written in stone, when in fact they should be based on the most recent and accurate information about relative risk.  But I disgress!

In my view, these diaries don't go against all vaccines.  They are just about having some more light so that we people can make a good risk-benefit analysis.  If it takes some exploration, so be it.

I'm not happy that this issue is not a simple one.  But if it's not simple, it's not simple.  Tossed coins want to be heads or tails quickly, but I'd rather take my time if I have it.

And, of course, any and all information we all may have that shows how adjuvanted vaccines are indeed safe, is more than welcome.

So far, what we have is that adjuvants have been tried with millions of senior folks.  Because their immunity is different from the young.  Now this will be offered to the young.  Vaccine now, monitor later.  With a generally mild virus.

I can't have a problem with people having other opinions, 'cos there's one enemy and it's not us, it's the virus :-).  But personally I prefer to learn more about mechanisms, and then, if I have time, have another look at the rest of the evidence.

YMMV (your mileage may vary).

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
I see that you misunderstand ;-)
Challenge is that I arrived in this forum from the Flu Wiki. And on that wiki it says: "The purpose of the Flu Wiki is to help local communities prepare for and perhaps cope with a possible influenza pandemic [...]" That is the kind of information that I am looking for.

I can see why, if you are new.  btw welcome to FW!!  

There are lots of information on this forum, and lots of other contributors.  We write about all aspects on pandemic flu, to help each other understand and to prepare.  If there's something you are looking for that you can't find, just post a question on the Community open thread and I'm sure someone will direct you to the information you need.

Now, since you are new, you probably don't know that I have written extensively on many subjects on pandemic flu.  Here's a list of around 160+ diaries from my archive.  So, no, I don't just write about vaccines, or about adjuvants.  But if you walk in the door and all you see is this series, then you might get the wrong impression.

To put this in perspective, I recently wrote a detailed summary of the swine flu vaccination situation and issues as pertaining to the US, Mass Vaccination against Swine Flu H1N1 in the US.  If you are in the US, there should be a lot of information there.  

I'm not familiar with the book that you refer to, but let me tell you that those of us who have been hanging around this forum for a while, are fully cognizant of the dangers of pandemic flu.  We started looking at it from the angle of an H5N1 pandemic.  You can see, if you care to look in my archies, that I spent a great deal of time both writing to inform the public (on science and policy and preparedness) and advocating to governments on issues like school closure, and how to get people to prepare.  In fact, I'm the co-founder of ReadyMoms Alliance, a small group of volunteers promote preparedness both to communities and to public health professionals.  See our postings here.  

I'm telling you all this to say, I do know all the other things are important, and I HAVE been writing about them.  The only thing is, I can only write about one thing at a time LOL (but there are lots of other contributors), and this particular topic is both difficult and very timely, with a LOT of people concerned about vaccine safety.

For instance, in several Western European countries >70% of the people have indicated that they don't plan to get a vaccination at all. 70%! And the main reasons that these people mention are "I'm not worried" "I don't care" "I don't know what H1N1 or swine flu is" and... "Vaccinations are dangerous"!!

Now, to address this very important and relevant question.  First, I've said this numerous times but if you are new, you would not have come across it.  I'm not anti-vaccine.  (I'm not even anti-adjuvant - later in the series, I will explain how I think we can and should make them much safer).  I take a flu shot every year, so does the rest of my family.  My kids have followed all vaccinations as recommended.  I have also stated, quite clearly, that if I was in the US, I would take the unadjuvanted vaccine for this pandemic if I belong to a risk group, although I always stress everyone should make up their own minds.

That said, the adjuvant issue is right now acutely important for many.  I'm from Europe.  Right now we're faced with a pandemic, and a choice of whether one should get vaccinated, if a vaccine is offered.  I have looked at the science for several years.  Over and over I wanted to find something that reassures me, that allows me to say, these adjuvanted vaccines are as safe as the traditional seasonal flu vaccine, or within reasonable limits.  

But I have looked at the science over and over - I have paid my own way to go to vaccine industry meetings, FDA meetings, spoken to scientists and regulators, read several hundred journal articles and at least 3 books on subjects related to adjuvants - all this in an effort to understand more, because of the paucity of information.  I'm telling you all this to say, I don't write this stuff lightly, from an uninformed position.  I'm writing this because it IS related to the current (and even future) pandemics, both in relation to personal decisions, and the development of better policies.  Most importantly, also relevant to the risk/benefit evaluations that each of us must make, when considering the severity of this pandemic, or of a pandemic caused by H5N1, which are 2 extremely different scenarios!!

So, this is the reason why I write this stuff.  If it doesn't interest you, there are plenty of other subjects on this forum that probably will - or you can start your own discussion.  But please don't tell me it isn't relevant to this pandemic - it very much IS, because there are PLENTY of people who have to make a decision in the very near future, and are concerned as to whether the risks are worth the benefits in this current pandemic.  There's extensive information on this forum on the severity and risks of this pandemic, there is NO ONE ELSE writing about the risks of the adjvuanted vaccines.  There are people who don't want to know, which is fine by me, but there are also people who are as we speak agonizing over the decision, example here http://www.newfluwiki2.com/sho...  We need to cater for all needs, IMHO...


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
come to think of it
the adjuvant issue is the MOST researched subject, among all the topics I've ever written about.  FAR more than even virology - and old timers will know how much I have written about virology....


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Makes sense, but not enough data
Difficulty is that as long as no long time study data are available, any argument for or against the danger of adjuvants (and therefore the danger of a vaccination) is relatively mute.
In the end, every person has to make a personal decision whether they choose to vaccinate or not - still I would like to recall the discussion about acrylamides that bubbled up several years ago. Acrylamides have been shown to cause diseases in rats, however no obvious, clear-cut effect (at the doses find in foodstuffs) in man has yet been been described convincingly (so much about the usefulness of rat models). Acrylamides are found in fried food (potato chips, fries, pizza...). Now, several years after the first sensational reports by a Swedish research team, hardly anybody is concerned about acrylamides anymore. Remember, acrylamides are found in foodstuffs that all of us eat day by day, and which could easily be circumvented if we wanted to... they are not even add-ins of a potentially life-saving vaccination. The point being that without good, solid long term data available, it may be better NOT to focus on a few hypothetical and individual cases where people MAY have come to harm due to adjuvants - it would be better to determine how many lives can be rescued through the respective vaccinations. I for one will get the vaccination as soon as it is available (also as I seem to react very strongly to the usual yearly flu as well - don't want to be done in by this one).

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