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The use of good judgement during the discussion of controversial issues would be greatly appreciated.

Community Open Thread March 16 to Nov 8 2010

by: Bronco Bill

Tue Mar 16, 2010 at 08:58:30 AM EDT


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Bronco Bill :: Community Open Thread March 16 to Nov 8 2010
The previous Community Open Thread is here.
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Community Open Thread March 16 to Nov 8 2010 | 124 comments
2006
can we have the fluwikie back, how it was in 2006, please

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies
Not likely
Fluwiki(e) is the same as it was in 2006. It's only the Forum that has changed to meet the demands placed on the servers and software...
[ Parent ]
the old forum would have crashed and burned
and taken the wiki down with it.

[ Parent ]
In the spring and early summer...
When everyone was online and searching for news, it certainly would have taken the server down. And it would probably have taken me down with it.
[ Parent ]
expertise
it's not just the format.
I mean, the expertise is going down and interest decreasing.
In 2006 I had thought that by 2010 we were all experts
but people left and were replaced by newbies, if any.
No experts, professionals were attracted by the good
discussions that we had in 2006.

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies
[ Parent ]
given the amount that the experts read
the forum (and all the forums), which I hear constantly, I don't think that's right.

I think this really means that you can't get people to predict for you the likelihood of a pandemic (which by the way is now at 100% for H1N1.)

[ Parent ]
..
I no longer can discuss new influenza-papers with others in the forums, no interest.
Some people do predict, most don't. Fewer in bio-science than elsewhere,IMO.
I know longer feel that they should know it better than myself.
We have big expert-secrecy here - no public discussion before the paper is out,
and even then it's rare.
Will current H1N1 count as pandemic in future history ? I make it 70%.
They don't count 1977 because it only attacked the young and no excess deaths.

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies
[ Parent ]
some of your contentions are just silly
Will current H1N1 count as pandemic in future history ? I make it 70%.

like that one.

[ Parent ]
I agree
some of your contentions are just silly

that said, I do also agree with the observation by gs, that there is now less interest in science on this forum.  It needs more people interested enough to post.

gs, if you want more people to be interested in science, you have to write the topics up in ways that are coherent to readers.  It takes effort to translate science into something that more readers can understand and participate in.  The FIRST step would be to write in complete sentences, paragraphs, and reasonably grammatical English so that people actually UNDERSTAND what you are saying.

I'm interested in science.  I know you are too.  But 90+% of what you write is incomprehensible to me.  I would suspect not many on this forum fare better than me, with trying to understand you.  So, take responsibility, if you want more discussion!!



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...

[ Parent ]
Here's one fine example
of what I mean, something most people can understand. Influenza Genetics for Liberal Arts Majors  Kudos to AlohaOR!!



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...
[ Parent ]
no question that
communication is hard, and those that try to communicate deserve kudos.
[ Parent ]
90% ?
I don't think it can be 90% considering the replies.

There is not so much motivation in improved grammar+wording when
likely noone will read it at all
And if there is interest, you can still improve+explain+elaborate
later on the unclear parts. First check whether there is interest
and in what area

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

[ Parent ]
well I _am_ telling you that I will read it
if I can understand it.  Can't speak about anyone else, and can't say that I will agree with your POV.  But I do read what you write, but I can't do any 'discussion' if I don't know what you are saying, or I have to read it several times and then have to GUESS what you are trying to say, for every comment.  I'm sorry but I just don't have the hours to do THAT kind of discussion, you know.

Just saying.  The rest is up to you.  



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...

[ Parent ]
long
may I say, that I often have a little problem with your contributions too ?
Not because they are hard to understand, I even tend to agree that they
are usually better understandable to the average reader.
But they are often so long and have no summary.
Reading long posts also takes time.
I see lots of forums and blogs and lots of posts in them.
I cannot read them all.
How to decide which one to open (by the headlines)
How to decide which posts to read (first pick the short ones)

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies
[ Parent ]
sequences
my main contributions are flu-sequence-analysis and mutation tables.
These are hard to communicate since most people - even many of
the experts - have no experience here and I rarely see others
using them. (why ?)
I cannot so well post them here because of the formatting.
It works better in v-bulletin.
I know people had problems to understand them, but I can't post
an explanation each time.

I had an explanation here:
http://www.h5n1experts.org/for...

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

[ Parent ]
main
sorry, not my main contribution.
That's the gathering and evaluation and discussion and improvement
of pandemic probability and damage estimates, of course.

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies
[ Parent ]
silly
 > some of your contentions are just silly

healine

>> Will current H1N1 count as pandemic in future history ? I make it 70%.

> like that one.
> by: DemFromCT

you like that one or you consider that one as an example of a "silly contention" ?
What's your estimate, can I make a poll ?

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

[ Parent ]
it is a pandemic and has been declared so
anything less than 100% is playing with facts, not estimates.
[ Parent ]
future

they may redefine "pandemic" , including virulence. This had been
(somehow) announced.
It had been required that they include virulence in calling pandemics,
there had been much criticism.

There may be two words for "pandemic" in future.
Virological pandemic and epidemiological pandemic
or "pandemic = severe global epidemic" and
"global outbreak of new-influenza-serotype" ("GONIS").
Or such.
And in back-reference mexflu may then no longer count as "pandemic".

1977 does not count as pandemic, although it was clearly similar to mexflu.

take a random encyclopedia in 2020. Will 2009 appear alongside
with 1918,1957,1968 as a pandemic year ? Probably yes (IMO)
but I'm not so sure.

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

[ Parent ]
good luck with that
2009 is in the books already. Future definitions will be future definitions. When a pandemic is declared by WHO, you can't undo it (not that it should be undone).

see estimates of illness.

http://www.newfluwiki2.com/rec...

[ Parent ]
real link
[ Parent ]
New Zealand: Brain Week
Grow lots of shiny new brain cells
Brain Week is a Brainwave from the Neurological Foundation
Grow a bigger brain in 7 days

Your brain loves exercise, just like other parts of your body. In fact, it needs regular workouts to stay buff and healthy - and grow lots of shiny new brain cells. It also loves a good get-together with your mates.

That's why, this year, we're challenging you to hang with your friends and grow bigger brains together. And help make EnZed 100 million brain cells smarter in just seven days. Find out more - and get bondin' for your noggin'!

http://www.brainweek.co.nz/

This looks like fun, too!  There are games.  Have to make dinner now, so I'll play and explore later.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

I've often used number games to increase brain cells...
Usually, I'll hold up a full beer mug to the light, count how many bubbles are in the glass, then take a swig and recount. Then, I'll do the math in my head to see how many fewer bubbles there are.
Of course, this must be done quickly, as the beer tends to get warm over time...and a fresh mug must be ordered...

[ Parent ]
My cat found a function on my Mac
that I never saw before: "Spotlight Comments"
It opened in a narrow column and says
General:
Kind:
Size:
Where:
Created:
Modified:
Color label:

More info:
Title:
Authors:
Pages:
Dimensions:
Security method:
Creator:
Encoding software:
Last opened:

There's even a screen shot of the first slide!

What keys bring that up?  She walked all over the keyboard this morning.  I got scared when the computer wouldn't wake up, then I thought of brightening the screen.  Whew! I hope there's no "self-destruct" sequence of keys [she laughed nervously].  Guess I'll have to put an empty shoe box on it again.

Thanks in advance for any help!

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Here's what you do
Go to 'Finder', select/highlight a file.  With your cursor on the file name, do right-click or hold down control.  This will bring up a drop-down list.  Click on 'Get info'.  That opens up the panel you described!!

It's a very useful place to know.  For example, you can add comments to help you identify certain files.  These comments are searchable, and also can be displayed in your finder as follows:

On the finder window, across the top it says file name, date modified, file type etc.  Put your cursor on that bar, then do right click (or hold down control), then click on 'show view options'.  This opens up a box that lets you choose which items to display in addition to file name, date modified etc.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...

[ Parent ]
Thank you, Susan! Color-coded labels
are possible now! This is great!  My desktop works differently since DD reorganized it, and the fixed location of files that it had before, is gone.  They keep moving according to use.  Colors should help a lot!  :-D

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
Praise for Flu Wiki Forum, posted May 1, '09
[snip]
The best source for the latest published news from around the world on the H1N1 virus (and other viruses of human health concerns) is the Fluwiki Forum. This site was started for tracking the avian H5N1 virus, and is now trying to keep up with this latest outbreak of swine H1N1. The in-depth and comprehensive background material on flu available on the Fluwiki itself is excellent ballast for the froth of "news."
[snip]
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/ar...

This is so old, it may have been posted months ago, but I just found it.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

I never saw this...
Good Find. Thanks Jane.
[ Parent ]
thank you, Jane!

[ Parent ]
Tool for rescue and EMT work
hat tip to the survival mom site
http://thesurvivalmom.com

...an ER doc in Croatia, has been very fond of a new clothes removal tool his ambulance service has been using in the last few months. Ivor says that the S-CUT is faster than any scissors and it can slice just about any normal clothing people wear on a daily basis....

...S-CUT is designed for optimal ergonomics and provides an excellent grip. Using scissors in heavy materials will most often require a lot of effort. The S-CUT is used with a pulling action requiring minimal effort.

The circular cutting blade is recessed in order to protect the patient and user from injury. The cutting blade can be easily replaced without the need for any additional tools....

http://www.medgadget.com/archi...

http://www.s-cut.us.com/index.htm

It's made in Sweden.  I didn't see a price anywhere.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

"The Vaccine Wars" is on PBS tonight.
This program concerns baby/childhood vaccines, not flu vaccines, but it may be worth watching.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/...

From a side-bar post by a physician:

A few months ago I got an email from my cousin. "Should I really be giving my baby all these vaccines at once?" Spacing vaccines is now a hot topic among young mothers. Why do them all at once when you can spread them out over several visits? Curious, I raised the question with my own pediatrician. "I can do that if you want, "she said, "but I feel bad for my relationship with the child." How can they grow to trust their doctor if every visit comes with a needle?[snip]

Comments by the public from both sides of the issue:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/...

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Excellent comment about every visit
That will come soon enough...in about 50 years or so! ;-)
[ Parent ]
Recall of infants' and children's liquid Tylenol, Motrin Zyrtec & Benedryl
http://www.mcneilproductrecall...

McNeil Consumer Healthcare, Division of McNEIL-PPC, Inc., in consultation with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), is voluntarily recalling all lots that have not yet expired of certain over-the-counter (OTC) Children's and Infants' liquid products manufactured in the United States and distributed in the United States, Canada, Dominican Republic, Dubai (UAE), Fiji, Guam, Guatemala, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Panama, Trinidad & Tobago, and Kuwait. (SEE RECALLED PRODUCT LIST BELOW).

McNeil Consumer Healthcare is initiating this voluntary recall because some of these products may not meet required quality standards. This recall is not being undertaken on the basis of adverse medical events. However, as a precautionary measure, parents and caregivers should not administer these products to their children. Some of the products included in the recall may contain a higher concentration of active ingredient than is specified; others may contain inactive ingredients that may not meet internal testing requirements; and others may contain tiny particles. While the potential for serious medical events is remote, the company advises consumers who have purchased these recalled products to discontinue use. (snip)

For additional information, including affected NDC numbers, consumers should visit our website (link) or call 1-888-222-6036 (Monday-Friday 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. Eastern Time, and Saturday-Sunday 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Eastern Time). Any adverse reactions may also be reported to the FDA's MedWatch Program by fax at 1-800-FDA-0178, by mail at MedWatch, FDA, 5600 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20852-9787, or on the MedWatch website at www.fda.gov/medwatch.

(List of recalled products and NDC numbers is in the link at the top of this story; it wouldn't copy & paste here.)

FDA webcast on now, but I haven't been able to get it.
Is anyone listening to it?  There's a list of players needed; I have Quicktime and realplayer, but, nothing comes on the little screen except "playing".

Link to meeting calendar
May 7, 2010: Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee Meeting Webcast4 :
http://www.fda.gov/AdvisoryCom...

Link to webcast (?)
http://www.connectlive.com/eve...

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Borrowed a netbook from DH,
it doesn't work either on that one either.  The netbook does have Windows Media Player, but it says "Encountered a problem...."  sigh.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
Jane...looks like the problem is on their end...
I get the same error code in Windows Media Player...
[ Parent ]
Thanks, BB! DH couldn't get it on his bigger laptop, either,
even after he downloaded what the site told him he needed.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
FDA has another peculiarity:
they want questions submitted at least one day before they said the meeting materials would be available.  Or, if you want to ask a question in person, you have to submit information 7 working days before the meeting.

It took a while to find the lists of committee members, too.  Now I appreciate the NBSB even more.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

[ Parent ]
Is the WHO bowing to political pressure from Indonesia (again)?
On May 6, the WHO posted an update on its website confirming two human H5N1 cases in Indonesia.  FW Forum reported on the WHO update on May 7 (here); the link to the WHO update is here.

Now, miraculously, the update doesn't show up on the WHO avian influenza page (here), nor in the Situation Update archives (here), although the 2 Indonesian cases do show up on the May 6 cumulative table of cases (here).

Now you see it, now you don't -- like magic!

Waste not, want not: here comes the new austerity chic
Waste not, want not. Make do and mend. A stitch in time saves nine. One slice with marge and one without. There's plenty of children would be grateful for that bit of gristle. Those were the phrases I heard constantly in my childhood, on the lips of women who had been marked for ever by wartime and post-war austerity Britain. Some even used to say, when confronted with a particularly fat slug on a raggy bit of lettuce, "extra meat rations". These phrases lasted long after rationing: the anxious habits of hard times are difficult to break.

Women of that generation found it almost impossible to throw things away. It was only in the late 1960s that I persuaded my mother to throw away a large cache of ancient tins of food, which her own long-dead mother had bought during the war, nearly 30 years before. Nothing was too badly frayed or torn to mend, no bit of binder twine or chicken wire too short to save, nothing too useless to be labelled and packed away just in case, no clunking hand-me-down lace-up shoes too hideous for her to press upon her children, even though we were not badly off.
[snip]
My late mother and the dear departed women of her generation would have had several helpful hints for today.

The first would be to consider how astonishingly wasteful we have become. Like the public services, most of us could be far more economical, as they used to say, and even feel better for it.

We should spend less by doing less. Eat less, as they did. Less on the plate, and never left uneaten, less meat, no snacks and much less eating out. [snip]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...
(Comment:  Tough times may make people more receptive to prepping ideas, although introducing more causes of worry, such as another pandemic, oil shortages, etc., won't be welcome.  It's a delicate balance.)

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Simple Sari Cloth Filtration of Water Is Sustainable
and Continues To Protect Villagers from Cholera in Matlab, Bangladesh

ABSTRACT

A simple method for filtering water to reduce the incidence of cholera was tested in a field trial in Matlab, Bangladesh, and proved effective. A follow-up study was conducted 5 years later to determine whether the filtration method continued to be employed by villagers and its impact on the incidence of cholera. A total of 7,233 village women collecting water daily for their households in Bangladesh were selected from the same study population of the original field trial for interviewing. Analysis of the data showed that 31% of the women used a filter of which 60% used sari filters for household water. Results showed that sari filtration not only was accepted and sustained by the villagers and benefited them, including their neighbors not filtering water, in reducing the incidence of cholera, the latter being an unexpected benefit. [snip]

http://mbio.asm.org/content/1/...

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

RICHARDFL IS BACK!!
Well to bring everyone up to date. I have not been on this fourm for over 3 months.  Had a lot happen.  

Had flu in December seasonal They told me.

1, Opened 2nd store. it's in a different county.  Been a pain in the butt.  Trying to fine good employees who will work part time is very hard.  Everyone wants full time work with benfits.  

Jan/Feb started out with both grandkids one on each coast and having their knee's operated on.   JUST PLAIN FUNNY

I had my knee operation last WEEK and it was a total replacement type. hurst like h#ll.

This month both gandsons on the East Coast came down with the seasonal flu.  So much for the H1N1 shot helping stop the seasonal flu, and this is MAY.

So how is everyone doing around here?

  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."

Hi Richard!
Welcome back!  Hope your knee feels better soon!  I know someone who probably needs a knee operation, but he's putting it off.

I've been watching the Iceland volcano a lot.  The site by Erik Klemetti is fascinating.  Lots of good photos, and scientists sharing information.  http://scienceblogs.com/erupti...

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

[ Parent ]
Hey Richard
Welcome back.  Things have been going along smoothly. pogge made some changes over on the Wiki---take a look when you get a chance. Much easier to read now!

[ Parent ]
hey, welcome back
roll up your sleeves and jump in!
[ Parent ]
So from what I have read/sean over the last 6 months:
It looks like every one has stepped back and breathed a big sigh of relief that the pandemic was not the killer everyone thought it could be.

My lessons learned mostly from grandkids:

1.  Most important. Get the "kids out of school" fast!!!  The flu spread so fast here in Florida mainly because they did not want to close the schools.

2.  Hospitals are NOT ready for a pandemic.  They made up "policy and procedures" as they went along.  Some worked well, but most adhock policy and procedures were bad.

3.  Poliicans need to "learn to step back" and let the Doctors take charge.  

4.  "Communications" needs to be fast, accurate, and timely.

Fix these  4 items mentioned above - country wide; and we all could breath easier...



  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."

[ Parent ]
Good points, Richard. n/t


"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
some hospitals prepared
others did not. it's now going to be institutionally forced by Joint Commission. But I think hospitals now realize no one could handle The Big One.
[ Parent ]
Difference in type of Hospital coverage
2 different types of hospitals used 2 different ways to handle this problem.

1.  Navy Hospital that has a population of both active, retired personnel,and their dependents.

- Polcy was set down 4 months prior.  a different building was used for screaning all people who want to enter the hospital.  Temps taken short written questionary given.  Once cleared then allowed to enter.  Kept the flu out of the hospital the entire time other then those who were placed in resrticted ICU status.  It was set up in a different area of the hospital then normally used.  No visitors...  Few cases of flu other then people coming in from town.

- County Hospital with very limited funds, Hospital was used by those who do not have outside doctor/insurance.   All people who entered stayed in same waiting area, a questionary was given and if flu symptoms stated then told to wait in back of waiting room until called.  That could be over 6 hours.  A lot of population came down with the flu even though they closed schools for 5 days.  Did no good.  Those with insurance and doc stayed away from the local hospital if at all possible. Had a writen policy but no one to control/practic it before hand.  Once it started too late.  Policy was forgotten.

Answer:

Money can mean the different.  Trained staff and money for additional space is what is needed in the future. If we have enough time before it happens again.

Lesson learned  

  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."

[ Parent ]
Off topic: Oil spill
My understanding is that oil spill VOCs (volatile organic compounds) can cause miscarriage and other pregnancy problems.

But I'm having difficulty finding the answer(s) to other questions. The main question I'm most interested in at the moment:

Can the possibility be ruled out that oil spill VOCs could cause delayed teratogenic effects? Another way of asking: Can the possibility be ruled out that oil spill VOCs being inhaled by a young girl or non-pregnant woman in the area of the spill cause a birth defect at a later time?

Have just come across ...
what looks like at least some answers to my questions:

http://www.sciencecorps.org/cr...

[ Parent ]
Also: What happens if there's a hurricane?
That question was brought up on a newscast the other day.  Swirling winds can pick up tiny droplets of the dispersed oil and rain them down miles away.  I was in England when a rainstorm carried dust from the Sahara.  Dust splatter was visible on all the cars in the street.  (Also, we have the example of volcanic dust traveling great distances.)

Questions:
How many miles can the contaminated rain travel?  
Should people wear masks if they're outdoors while it's raining?
How contaminated will the environment be, when the storm is over?  How will we clean it up?
Will there be vapors that simple dust masks won't filter out?

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

[ Parent ]
there are several issues
First, the greatest exposures would likely be from close contact with the oil, eg in oil cleanup workers, who may if they are not careful in decontamination, also bring home the stuff on their clothing and their bodies, to their families.  There may also be toxicity from the solvents used for decontamination, if those are not removed properly.

Secondly, crude oil when exposed to the elements tend to get 'weathered', with evaporation of the more volatile components, to form crusted lumps.  When you read about 'tar balls' on beaches, that's the stuff that's left, when the oil has been churned around in the ocean and loses much of the volatile bits.  That said, I've also read that these tar balls can vary in the extent of weathering, such that some may break and release oil that's not been much weathered inside.

Third, the evaporated pollutants are dispersed by wind.  I don't think rain is that much of a problem.  A storm will actually churn up the ocean pretty good, thus favoring weathering.  It may, however, make it easier for the oil (crude or weathered) to make landfall.

Last and most importantly, you asked a question about simple dust masks.  There are 2 important issues here - vapor and oil aerosol:

1.  Most masks are designed to filter out particulates, not vapor (or gas).  
2.  Most masks are not designed to filter out oil-based particulates (ie oil aerosols).  We are familiar with N95 or N100 masks.  In order to protect against oil aerosols, you need a P series mask (P95 or P100), but again these do not protect against vapors, unless they are specifically designed to do so.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...

[ Parent ]
follow this blog
http://scienceblogs.com/thepum...

Who's Ensuring Cleanup Workers are Adequately Trained and Protected?

http://scienceblogs.com/thepum...

"In many instances, we know enough to act": Chemicals and cancer

[ Parent ]
good questions!
Can the possibility be ruled out that oil spill VOCs could cause delayed teratogenic effects? Another way of asking: Can the possibility be ruled out that oil spill VOCs being inhaled by a young girl or non-pregnant woman in the area of the spill cause a birth defect at a later time?

I'd say, no, we cannot rule out the possibility, since so little research is done on individual chemicals, especially when their chemical components are kept 'proprietary' ie secret.  

But in general, certain persistent organic compounds can and do accumulate in the body, such that the risk to the fetus is governed by the cumulative exposures of the mother before pregnancy.  One of the best, also probably the most poignant, book on the subject is Having Faith, written for a general audience by eminent ecologist Sandra Steingraber.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...

[ Parent ]
Honeyville discount until 6/15/10
Got this in email:
Greetings from Honeyville Farms:

SUMMARY:  10% OFF YOUR ENTIRE ORDER* from Thursday, June 10, 2010 thru Tuesday, June 15, 2010 at 6:00PM PST.  Simply enter the coupon code GLOOM during checkout. This week we're introducing some great new TVP varieties and more.  Save on these and all of your favorites for a limited time.  

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com



"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Expanded recall: Benadryl and Tylenol
A Tylenol recall issued last year by the Johnson & Johnson  unit of McNeil Consumer Healthcare because of chemical contamination has been expanded for a second time to include Benadryl Allergy Ultratablets and Extra Strength Tylenol.

The latest recall includes four lots of Benadryl Allergy Ultratab tablets in 100 count bottles sold in the U.S. with lot numbers AJA008, ADA194, ABA022 and ABA264, and one lot of Tylenol Extra Strength Rapid Release Gel Cap with lot number ASA202.
(click on link in article to see complete list of recalled products)
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/W...

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Happy Father's Day!
Happy Father's Day Dem, Bronco Bill, pogge, and all you others of the male persuasion.  Even if you don't have children, I'm sure you serve as role models and deserve some recognition today.

"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
AOL users, is something odd going on?
In the past week, I've had 2 emails purporting to be from friends and acquaintances, and one was even a reply to a message from me an hour earlier.  The only content was a link (different URLs) to a Canadian drug supply store.  Is AOL being hacked?  (The first one was from a FluWikian to a group of 9 people!  I answered it (twice), but only got a failure-to-deliver notice.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
Jane, the exact same thing is happening
to me and I have earthlink for e-mail.  

United we stand: Divided we fall
www.flunewsnetwork.com
[ Parent ]
My email is yahoo. Is your weird mail from AOL too? n/t


"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
Cottontop, I just got another, from msn.com this time. n/t


"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
Brrr. The third "sender" replied to me
that the hacker has grabbed a lot of her mail contacts.  She could see the names in that mail I sent back to her.  She has security programs on her computer, too.  gulp.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
Jane, the email I recieved
was from a dear friend who uses AOL. I didn't think anything about it when I opened it and it was promoting a candian pharmacy and not from my friend at all. Needless to say I became concerned but have not had anymore incidents. That's not to say something won't happen though.

Hope you don't encounter any problems.  

United we stand: Divided we fall
www.flunewsnetwork.com

[ Parent ]
@ Jane --
Over the past few months, a lot of AOL users have had their email contact lists "borrowed" by unscrupulous hackers.  Security programs are all fine and dandy, but if a person has a weak firewall set up, anyone with a little knowledge can get to their email client and copy the address book.

I know of two people here on FW who have been hacked in the past two weeks, and several friends/co-workers in the past 6 months. All using AOL as their carrier.

[ Parent ]
spams from myself
aol sends me spams from myself

someone else uses(hacked) my email,
apparantly that's possible with AOL

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

[ Parent ]
Some scientists in Italy have been arrested
and charged because they did not predict a damaging earthquake.  

140
Referring to mjkbk's comment (#116). The accusations against the members of the "Major Risks Commission" are indeed a haunting issue. The accusations are based on them failing to warn of the L'Aquila earthquake of 6 April 2009 in Central Italy, which killed 300 people, in spite of an ongoing seismic swarm (nothing to do with volcanism, though) that had started three months earlier.

This is to be seen in the light of allegations by an Italian technician to have predicted the earthquake (he did publicly predict a major earthquake, within maximum 24 hours, in a location 80 km away from L'Aquila, and 6 days earlier, causing panic). Unfortunately this person was given much credit by the Italian public and news media, although his "method" had never been published or made available otherwise. Most essentially it's questionable how much sense a prediction with a time window of maximum 24 hours can have, especially if it's voiced for a megacity, like, say, Naples, and always considering the possibility of a false alarm.

Up to now there is international consensus that there is no way to predict earthquakes; all approaches thus far are based on statistical forecasting which does not say much about the timing of an earthquake. In recent time, dealing with earthquakes has seen a shift away from trying to predict (or forecast) earthquakes to prevention. Prevention means, creating public awareness and preparedness, enforcing earthquake-resistant construction (which is possible, look at the outcome of the February M 8.8 Chile earthquake in comparison with the January M 7.0 Haiti earthquake).

An open letter has been set up to the President of the Republic of Italy, which you can read at

www.mi.ingv.it/open_letter/

and if you like, you can sign it. This is a very important issue, in a very critical moment for research and education in Italy, which is suffering constant cuts in funding (in Berlusconiland what counts is basically "bread and games" - though the "bread" factor seems to become more difficult, the "games" are going full speed).

Posted by: Boris Behncke, Catania, Italy


http://scienceblogs.com/erupti...

Boris Behncke is a vulcanologist studying Mt. Etna and a frequent contributor to the Eruptions blog.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Mods, could we have a new diary please? n/t


"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
I'm guessing a new Indo diary?
If so, consider it done!  On the Front Page  :-)
[ Parent ]
Dang, Bronco Bill can't you read my mind?
I figured you knew what I meant which is a good thing because I don't always know what I mean!

"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
Food preserv. classes IL & FW diaries on food preservation
Jams and jellies, July 10, registration due Thursday;
Water-bath canning, July 17;
Pressure canning, July 24.

Classes offered by University of Illinois Extension Lake County from 9am to 3pm in Village of Round Lake Beach Cultural & Civic Center, 2007 Civic Center Way.  For information call 847-223-8627.

Space is limited.  Fee $50.
Register at lake.extension.uiuc.edu

Link to IL Preppers diary: http://www.newfluwiki2.com/dia...

More on Food Storage
ReadyMom posted On-Line-Food-Storage Training Class in Apr. 2008, and the link still works.  You have to sign up to see the videos.  There's a 2-week free trial period.  Comments in the diary say it's very worthwhile.
http://www.newfluwiki2.com/dia...

KathyinFL's diary from 2007,
Canning as a method of food storage preparation
http://www.newfluwiki2.com/dia...

Have to include this one (LOL)
My First Canning Experience by wikimetoo
http://www.newfluwiki2.com/dia...
Thanks for writing it, wikimetoo!

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Science Blogs: Zombie Day today
It started on Neurotopia  http://scienceblogs.com/neurot...
and the idea is being played with by other bloggers, like The Pump Handle  http://scienceblogs.com/thepum...

Sharon Astyk's Casaubon's Book has two, A Zombie Day Extravaganza  
Excerpt:

Anyway, on the subject of whether you have to prepare for actual zombies, above I suggested you did not. And in a literally "horrible undead things devouring your brain" sense, you can probably skip that. But I do want to raise the semi-serious (it is a real issue, but there's only so serious one can be when writing the word "zombie" over and over again) issue of a real zombie problem that all of us are going to be facing for a long time to come. Zombie institutions and zombie infrastructure.

If you take the word "zombie" to mean something that is no longer living functionally in any meaningful sense, but has become an agent of destruction, we now have a real problem. Because almost every bit of our infrastructure and the major institutions that serve us are, in many ways, zombie institutions. They depend heavily on fossil fuels that we neither will have in abundant supply, nor can burn if we want a human-habitable planet. They presume growth and increases in wealth, and make all their planning assumptions on the idea that things will get back to a normal of unfettered use of resources and endless growth. These zombies can hurt us.

http://scienceblogs.com/casaub...
and  Have you done your zombie day shopping yet?, a detailed primer on just-before-TSHTF prepping (and if you follow the 2 links to her earlier blogs, a slower, calmer, prepping method).  http://scienceblogs.com/casaub...

There are more here  http://scienceblogs.com/channe...  including one on zombie banks.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

diaries

when I look at the list of active diaries (=threads)
at the right, almost all diaries are "News" -diaries

can we have a list of active non-news-diaries ?

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

@gs
Click on Recent Active Diaries in the top-left-side About box
[ Parent ]
flunet
since some days I can no longer get flunet data.
Anyone can ?
Anyone registered ?

http://gamapserver.who.int/Glo...


ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

works again
works again !

[size=1]
[code]
2010/07/15,15:00 GMT
(H1): 21 48 42 30 18 47 63 25 18 7 7 19 13 12 19 19 8 18 19 13 11 9 10 4 3 2 1
(H3): 108 88 83 88 75 83 63 75 81 59 45 62 86 82 86 81 65 95 83 142 90 97 85 91 86 71 29
(Mx): 5250 4006 3158 2201 1977 1667 1335 1412 1245 1159 936 809 731 607 524 432 261 361 305 221 198 167 187 157 128 119 106
(A ): 5744 4552 3631 2602 2377 2056 1702 1749 1575 1428 1205 1042 1006 797 701 614 378 525 458 427 350 305 328 287 249 233 152
(B ): 844 1214 1577 1548 1497 1282 804 1284 1331 1492 1686 1682 1714 1287 1097 1136 1012 775 601 483 387 314 287 168 209 140 85
%Mx(A): 97.6 96.7 96.1 94.9 95.5 92.7 91.3 93.3 92.6 94.6 94.7 90.8 88 86.5 83.3 81.2 78.1 76.1 74.9 58.7 66.2 61.1 66.3 62.3 58.9 61.9 77.9
%B: 12.8 21 30.2 37.3 38.6 38.4 32 42.3 45.8 51 58.3 61.7 63 61.7 61 64.9 72.8 59.6 56.7 53 52.5 50.7 46.6 36.9 45.6 37.5 35.8

[/code]
[/size]

weeks 24-27 : H3 - Mx
Australia : 6,5,2,1 - 4,7,16,12
Brazil : 0,0,0,?  - 10,15,5,?
Cambodia: 0,1,1,0 - 2,1,10,13
Chile: 3,5,3,5 - 24,20,31,36
China:4,8,20,23 - 15,24,32,45
India:0,0,?,? - 17,3,?,?
Japan:0,0,0,0 - 8,4,5,0
Kenya:6,3,10,? - 0,1,0,?
Madagascar:6,5,?,? - 0,0,0,0
Mexico:0,0,0,? - 1,2,0,?
New Zealand:0,1,0,? - 1,2,2,?
Russia:0,1,0,0 - 2,0,0,0 - 0,0,0,0
Singapore:50,38,30,? - 31,20,21,?
South Africa:9,16,?,? - 0,1,?,?
USA:0,2,0,? - 0,2,0,?

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

[ Parent ]
FWEET Email coming tonight
It's time for the quarterly test of the FluWiki Emergency Email Test.

If you're not on the list, and want to be, send an email WITH YOUR USERNAME and EMAIL ADDRESS to vaprepper@gmail.com.

If you have changed your email address since last time (Mid-April) please update me so I can get it corrected.

Thanks everyone...

RICHARD-FL is back again Part 2
Well I had to go into the hospital for a complete rebuilding of my left knee.  It was done on the 3rd of June after 3 days in the hospital I was shipped to a Rehav business.  I spent 6 weeks relearning to bend my knee.  Yesterday I was able to see the X-Rays of what they did.  I cannot go through a metal detector any more.  too much metal.  My whole knee is metal and plastic.  They told me it should last 15 years then I will have to do it again.

I will have rehab for the for the next 6 months.  Boy that was something I was not ready for.

But now I'm back and will start reading all that I have missed since January.  Just glad to be back.

  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."

It's great to have you back! n/t

[ Parent ]
Welcome back, Richard!
Good luck with the rehab!  

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
Hey Richard
Glad to have you back in the fold. I don't anticipate that you're going backpacking any time soon, so you've got a ton of reading to do!!  

Welcome back! :-)

[ Parent ]
Richard-Fl thoughts about the last 7 months:
Some thoughts about the last 7 months:

First of all  Thank you!

While in the hospital and in Rehab I was placed in a restriction room.  

I had an infection in 2007 that turned out to be MRSI related. They tell me that since it was first discovered almost everyone has it now!  When you tell medical about it or have a record about it, they check your blood daily to be sure you are not a carrier or had it returned.  

It took me two days to figure out that everyone who entered needed to glove, mask, and use disposal aprons every time.  The is when I asked about it.  I originally thought they did it due to the operation.

I asked about Flu preps.  I had the seasonal flu early this year because the VA gave out H1N1 shots instead of the normal seasonal flu shot. They were the ones who failed so badly this last fall.  I was told they hired some people who now control policy and procedures about Flu.  They practice the new procedures a minimum each quarter, to set up additional and separate facilities.

My operation:

I now know that both the operation and recovery of 6 weeks in rehab will cost about $500,000.00.  I have 2 health insurance policies so I will pay about $800.00 total.  So if you expect Medicare to pay for it all wrong (YOU PAY 20% of TOTAL COST).  

TIP:  Get additional insurance or you will have to pay a lot more then you thought.  I have Medicare and another policy.  All the payments I have made over the last 12 years paid for it self for one day in the hospital.

Enough for today tired.

RICHARD FL

  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."

[ Parent ]
Pace yourself
And welcome back.
[ Parent ]
Should we ban Las Vegas Review Journal clips??
This is very concerning... one webblog that I know of has banned such clips... no one needs the headache of a lawsuit!
Cathy

http://www.wired.com/threatlev...

Borrowing a page from patent trolls, the CEO of fledgling Las Vegas-based Righthaven has begun buying out the copyrights to newspaper content for the sole purpose of suing blogs and websites that re-post those articles without permission. And he says he's making money.

"We believe it's the best solution out there," Gibson says. "Media companies' assets are very much their copyrights. These companies need to understand and appreciate that those assets have value more than merely the present advertising revenues."

Gibson's vision is to monetize news content on the backend, by scouring the internet for infringing copies of his client's articles, then suing and relying on the harsh penalties in the Copyright Act - up to $150,000 for a single infringement - to compel quick settlements. Since Righthaven's formation in March, the company has filed at least 80 federal lawsuits against website operators and individual bloggers who've re-posted articles from the Las Vegas Review-Journal, his first client.

Read More http://www.wired.com/threatlev...

We shouldn't have any problems...
...as long as folks here follow the Forum Rules, especially numbers 8 & 9:

8. News stories should not be reproduced in full. It is a violation of copyright and fair use rules, particularly when not accompanied by analysis. Post just a portion, and provide a link. No link, no credibility.

9. Observe and follow Fair Use doctrine.

[ Parent ]
they're going after all snippets, too!
They apparently are not respecting Fair Use - they are making money from threatening lawsuits and knowing that most small blogs could not afford lawyers! That's what made the story important, and why it worried me...  
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't go out of my way to post their
snippets. if they want to be jerks, we don't have to play.
[ Parent ]
No Friday jokes this week?
I'm going through withdrawal, and it's not a pretty sight.
For DemfromCT and others
Engineering lungs, by PZ Myers, a blog post about growing replacement lungs

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyn...

Imagine someday having spare lungs in a hospital's stock, the way blood is kept on hand.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Mods, we need a new Indo Poultry Diary please. n/t


"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
Done
(Bronco Bill was too busy trying to get the s'mores out of Carol's feather boa before returning it to her, so I took care of it while his back was turned.)
[ Parent ]
The only reason there were...
...s'mores in her feather boa is 'cuz I needed some fiber in my diet...  :-P
[ Parent ]
Dang. Did you eat all the s'mores? n/t


"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
I had to...
...they were getting cold and the feathers weren't sticking to them anymore...
[ Parent ]
H3 vs. Mx
(H1): 3 3 1 2 1 1 2 0 0
(H3): 150 144 167 184 257 219 296 213 226
(Mx): 192 249 318 427 453 470 582 606 214
(A ): 398 448 535 689 781 778 1031 847 448
(B ): 278 255 272 357 302 232 155 86 54
%Mx(A): 55.6 62.8 65.4 69.6 63.7 68.1 66.1 73.9 48.6
%B: 41.1 36.2 33.7 34.1 27.8 22.9 13.0 09.2 10.7

weeks 29-33:
-------------
Australia,H1:0,0,0,0,0
Australia,H3:1,3,4,2,4
Australia,Mx:13,26,29,20,34
Australia,B :0,2,5,21,20

China,H1:1,1,1,0,0
China,H3:151,164,254,183,222
China,Mx:77,60,91,90,55
China, B:158,125,95,37,29

India,H1:0,0,0,0,0
India,H3:0,1,5,11,0
India,Mx:232,306,425,448,123
India, B:0,3,3,8,5

Japan,H1:0,0,0,0,0
Japan,H3:5,2,4,1,0
Japan,Mx:3,2,2,4,0
Japan, B:3,1,0,0,0

Kenya,H1:0,0,0,0,0
Kenya,H3:13,0,14,10,0
Kenya,Mx:0,0,0,0,0
Kenya, B:1,0,0,0,0

New Zealand,H1:0,0,0,0,0
New Zealand,H3:0,0,0,0,0
New Zealand,Mx:7,4,18,40,0
New Zealand, B:0,0,1,0,0

Panama,H1:0,0,0,0,0
Panama,H3:3,1,0,0,0
Panama,Mx:0,0,0,0,0
Panama, B:0,0,0,0,0

Singapore,H1:0,0,0,0,0
Singapore,H3:33,8,9,0,0
Singapore,Mx:8,14,6,0,0
Singapore, B:17,25,24,0,0

USA,H1:0,0,0,0,0
USA,H3:3,9,4,5,0
USA,Mx:2,2,1,4,0
USA, B:4,4,2,8,0

ask experts for their subjective
panflu death expectation values
and report the replies

For UK preppers - Pandemic Antibacterial Kit
Out of date or visionaries?

To be found in my local 'Scoops' discount store at £2.99 per kit

Each kit contains:
2 x ffp3 masks
1 x digital thermometer
1 x 100ml bottle cuticura antibacterial hand gel
2 x packets kleenex tissues
2 x biohazard bags
1 x pair med/large nitrile gloves
10 x disinfectant wipes in individual packets

Bargain!

Scoops has branches throughout the north of England. Google 'scoops discount'

David

BTW
I have no connection with the store or product. I'm simply a happy shopper!
[ Parent ]
Myths about learning, for the new school year
Studies

[snip]...directly contradict much of the common wisdom about good study habits, and they have not caught on.

For instance, instead of sticking to one study location, simply alternating the room where a person studies improves retention. So does studying distinct but related skills or concepts in one sitting, rather than focusing intensely on a single thing.

"We have known these principles for some time, and it's intriguing that schools don't pick them up, or that people don't learn them by trial and error," said Robert A. Bjork, a psychologist at the University of California, Los Angeles. "Instead, we walk around with all sorts of unexamined beliefs about what works that are mistaken."
[snip]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09...

Another example: testing is a learning tool.  (See second page.)

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

Just popping back in
Dem, Poggie, Susan, BB, and everyone...... just thought I would drop back in and say hi.  Looks like things have calmed down quite a bit here.  On the one hand, we had a pandemic... which proved to be a great dry run.  On the other hand... Even with the mild virus... Did we really do a good job Of managing it?

I wish I could be a more active member...... like in the old days, but life keeps getting in the way.

Just know that, this site has made us "experts" (directed to gs) and we have gone out and done good things with that knowledge.

will keep checking back in from time to time.

hugs to everyone....

Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, that's all who ever have. ~ Margaret Mead

Been checking in
Hello everyone.

I usually check in once a day or so, in lurker mode.  What is happening in South Sulawesi has my attention.

Thank you to the newshounds here on the FluWiki and at Flutrackers for staying on top of this.

If this thing has legs I'll be back in active mode once more, and help out however I can.

Thanks again.

great to hear from everyone
now and again ;-)
just checking in-
with a couple of comments.

A) it appears that the seasonal flu is unusually early and unusually severe.  Dem, is this consonant with what you are seeing?  My hospitals are seeing ILI/pneumonia patients already.

B) what is going on around Makassar?  There seems to be a lot of reporting there which is either indicative of unusual activity or more reporting.  Anyone have a better handle on this?

KEEP THE GRID UP!
Prudent People Prepare Properly

"better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!"

not yet
a handful only of early cases.

H3N2 is typically harder on adults/seniors than H1N1 so we'll see.

Good to hear form you.

[ Parent ]
any developments wrt H3N2?
Dem:

Have you seen or heard anything that would support Niman's assertion that we're looking at a pandemic capable reassortant of the Mexiflu H1N1 with Seasonal H3N2?  I have seen a number of evaluations of the new N3N2 as being a low reactor to the present vaccine.

LMW

KEEP THE GRID UP!
Prudent People Prepare Properly

"better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!"

[ Parent ]
Something odd (if minor)
Recent Comments
Korea: Seoul steps up efforts to pr...
by: Carol@SC
in: News Reports for November 5, 2010
Welcome spruceree
by: Carol@SC
in: News Reports for November 4, 2010

Clicking on Welcome spruceree goes to:
News Reports for November 4, 2010 | 13 comments | Post A Comment
News Reports for November 4, 2010 | 13 comments | Post A Comment

http://www.newfluwiki2.com/sho...
When I went to the News page just before that, [new] was there, but there wasn't anything new.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
I took spruceree out for spamming
And when I banned him it would have taken out any comments he had made and any replies to them.
[ Parent ]
Carol@SC has dislocated her shoulder.
She will be taking some time to recover.  All the newshounds wish her the best, because she is the best.

"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
Carol, owww!
Best wishes for a speedy recovery!

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor
[ Parent ]
Owww! indeed
Sadly, I have some knowledge of shoulder injuries. When the time comes, do whatever physio is on offer, Carol. Feel better.
[ Parent ]
And Carol?
Don't you worry your little heart about your flourescent pink feather boa...it looks just fine tied around your cape!  ;-)

Truthfully, get better Carol...hope your shoulder feels better soon,

[ Parent ]
Hi to all my friends.
I just saw all your wonderful wishes and you made my heart smile. My good friend, History Lover, told you I had dislocated my shoulder (extremely painful) and assumed I was "out of service." That is probably because I was whining so much to her about the pain. LOL

Good news! Since I can do little else with my arm strapped to my body so that I won't move it, I have been searching and posting even more than usual. Thanks for all your well wishes.

Especially to you BB:
Since I have been so generous with lending you my pink feather boa, I think it is time you got your butt over here to do my housework while I am a "pitiful little helpless thing." ROTF

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. --Unknown

     

Can I come and take pictures of Bronco Bill
cleaning your house while wearing the pink feather boa?

"I am opposed to any form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
You sure can....
I figure we can get big bucks selling them on Fluwiki and there is no telling how much he might pay us not to!

I bet Dem would be out first customer, followed quickly by pogge. ROTF

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. --Unknown

     

[ Parent ]
well..
prepping supplies: $5 and up
tamiflu: $100
that picture: priceless
[ Parent ]
DEM....ROTFLMAO!


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. --Unknown

     

[ Parent ]
I do command...
...a 20% commission. And do I get my own tin-foil hat?
[ Parent ]
Of course.
A brand new shiny pink one.

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. --Unknown

     

[ Parent ]
The propeller is extra (n/t)

[ Parent ]
I don't think we should sell pictures like that
I think we should give them away. It wouldn't be fair to deprive the world of such ... give me a minute, the word will come to me.
[ Parent ]
Depravity? n/t

[ Parent ]
ROTFLMAO


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. --Unknown

     

[ Parent ]
And on THAT note...
We have a new Community Open Thread HERE
Trying to bury the evidence now, are we? n/t

[ Parent ]
LOL
AlohaOR, I think you nailed it!

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. --Unknown

     

[ Parent ]
Community Open Thread March 16 to Nov 8 2010 | 124 comments
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