5th Update Prep List Shelter In Place

Relatives

My relatives have been being warned to prep for more than a year now. Only one sister and my mother are doing so. I would have no problem sharing what I have with them.

As for other relatives, it will depend on our circumstances at the time they "pop in for a visit." It will be a fluid situation that will depend on the available resources at the time.

In either case, anyone wanting to join our SIP will have to quarantine for two weeks in less than ideal conditions. I'm not trying to be a jerk. But I don't have the resources to convert my garage to a Hilton.

We absolutely will not break SIP for anyone, relative or neighbor, who shows up with a sick or dead relative. If they are dead, they are dead. Shovels and tarps are out back. I will not put my children at risk in that way.

I don't really anticipate this being a problem, however. By the time my relatives realize the situation is dire enough to require my assistance, the borders will in all likelihood be closed.

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by: Edna Mode @ Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 13:50:17 PM UTC

50's fall out shelter mentality

Hi,

  I guess somewhere in the back of my mind is the fall out shelter mentality but it is way back there.
  People will be needed to run sewage plants, guard hazerdus waste, etc. Even if I want to stay home I can be drafted by the government to help. Yes I would go instead of any other family member.

  Sewage plants? The past has shown that even if you turn off the water and electricity people find a way to flush the toilet. Hospitals also have a large amount of medical waste (Flu/HIV/Resistant Staph etc). Unless treated it ends up in the enviroment where it spreads. Yea, pretty gross as it would be measured in millions of gallons per day for an average city of one million.

  NOTE: some cities have a single sanitary and storm system so when it rains basment toilets overflow. Boston comes to mind.

  We also have a large number of nuclear power plants close by. Most are Navy owned and operated for subs and aircraft carriers. The hospitals and power company I hope have a long, long list of people to take care of and guard such things.

  Hence I can see drafting healthy people to cope. So the bunker mentality is pushed back unless we leave and head for the hills.

Kobie

 

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by: Kobie @ Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 17:51:57 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

fall out shelter

It may come to that  if the 60% death rate does not drop and BF goes to H2H2H and becomes pandemic what situation would cause you to break SIP with your family?

That is what we want to know what is your breaking point.
and even more the reasons why...  it may help others to explain their actions to other family members in the same situation, it could save lives.

It may help family members realize how serious this matter is!

RICH

  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."

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by: RICHARD-FL @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 02:04:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

We do not plan a SIP

Husband is a family physician. He plans to work. We are both over 50. We have preps for our nieces and nephews who live next door. I have MS, retired nurse. What ever happens , happens...
Hopefully, he will be old enough that he will be able to help out as well as I as best I can.

Life is not so short but that there is always time enough for courtesy. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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by: mojo @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 05:42:05 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I am not sure if this is useful to you, in view of your condition.

These are from Ontario, and the triage protocol is still evolving. Since this is the earliest work (that I know of) I would not be surprised that other jurisdictions may reference it to develop their own.

http://www.health.go...

http://www.cmaj.ca/c...

http://www.cmaj.ca/c...

http://www.utoronto....

You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.

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by: anon.yyz @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 05:55:17 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Flexibility

Even in a total SIP situation you will need to remain flexible.  There are only two sets of people that I would intentionally break a serious SIP for ... my parents and my brother and his family.

My parents because it would have to be hell for them to suddenly show up on my doorstep as they live 3 hours away from me in a rural setting and should, in reality, be more secure than my position.  I'm concerned though because they are 3 hours away ... one or both of them could fall ill and they have no real dependable network to fall back on except their church and that may be a catch as catch can situation at best.  My parents believe they are as prepped as they can be, though I personally wouldn't call it that.  My dad is retired USAF so they may have things held back that I don't know about. 

My brother and his family would probably also not show up on my door.  My brother has two children whom he shares custody of and he will want to remain close to them.  My sister-in-law would probably have to remain available to her parents as she is the dependable sibling in her situation.  The real problem is that though my brother and sister in law are younger than I am, both of them have potentially problematic health issues in a pandemice ... my brother has boughts of chronic bronchitis and my SIL has small kidneys (a birth defect).  Her son is severely ADHD which means he has his own issues for SIP.  I'm not sure if they are prepping and it is difficult to bring such a thing up with them for various reasons.

Neighbors are a hard issue ... there are a couple of kids in the neighborhood that I have in boy scouts.  I would not turn them away but I'm not sure what I would do.  Flexibility will be key.  We can pretend we know what best case/worst case is ... but whatever winds up happening will probably be considerably different than what we envisioned. 

Bottom line, our plans are fluid and flexible.  They'll be tinkered with and adjusted as reality presents itself.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead

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by: KathyinFL @ Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 20:46:35 PM UTC

Flexibility

This may be one of the keys for families:

TIs it possible to have 4 to 6 families that can gather together as a group for both security and SIP purposes. This would give 12-20 adults.  That means people could become home-spun experts in subjects such as medical, self-support farming, security, etc.

I believe it would also allow for maximum flexability.

RICH

  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."

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by: RICHARD-FL @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 02:13:36 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You'll have to weigh necessity against social distancing issues

In my case, we have 5 members (children) in the kill zone for H5N1 which may act similar to the 1918 human pandemic which struck the young and able bodied in disproportionate numbers to those usually struck by the influenza virus.

In our particular case, social distancing and strict SIP protocols would seem to be the best reaction to a pandemic of any magnitude.

On the other hand, households that do not have similar issues would probably do well with banding together.

As the situation progresses, our view may change ... may have to change ... but for now, all the given "knowns" keep our plan heading towards strict family unit, isolationist-type tactics.

You would have to be very careful to make sure that the groups that are banding together share very similar thought patterns when it comes to the group's overall behavior and survival.  Even one person going their own way could endanger the entire group if the attack rate is high enough in the next pandemic.  A lot may also depend on geographic location ... how far away will the group live from population centers? 

Each group will need to individually determine what is right for them.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead

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by: KathyinFL @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 02:25:13 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Window Security

Richard,

Here is a really cheap way to reinforce a vulnerable window.

Cut electrical conduit into a section that is about 4" to 6" longer that the width of your window.  Flatten the last 2" or 3" of each end with a vise or a hammer.  Drill a hole in each of the flattened areas.  This hole should be the same diameter as the shank of a 4" or 5" hex-head lag screw.  Use a 4" or 5" hex-head lag screw to fasten this conduit bar to the wooden studs that are behind the window frame.  Yes, a suitable pilot hole will be needed.  Mount this first bar horizontally about 6" above the window sill.  Fabricate and mount additional bars, as needed, about every 6".  For additional security, do as I have done: insert measured lengths of re-bar into the conduit before flattening the ends.

After all of your bars have been fabricated and mounted, remove them, give them two or three coats of paint, and store them until they are needed.  (Painting is very important, because otherwise it will be pretty obvious that your bars are merely made of conduit.)  As for the pilot holes in your window frame, you can buy furniture caps to conceal them.

Now, if your place seems less vulnerable than your neighbor's, the bars will have done their job.

You are running out of time.


http://tinyurl.com/37bl45

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by: Dr Dave @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 12:10:20 PM UTC

Just out of curiosity

Did you get the rebar from a local hardware store or somewhere else? And what does it cost?

I've been looking at alternatives for our windows, and none of them are cheap. This may be a good solution, assuming the rebar is affordable.

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by: Edna Mode @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 13:38:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Windows

Edna,

The rebar alone will be difficult to install.  It is not very thick, but it would be extremely hard to drill through without a drill press.  Stop by a home improvement store and you can look at the various sizes and lengths.  I bought #5 rebar from Home Depot to slip into 3/4" conduit.  I do not recall the price.  The number refers to its thickness in 1/8" increments, so #5 rebar would be 5/8" and #4 would be 1/2".

You are running out of time.


http://tinyurl.com/37bl45

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by: Dr Dave @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 13:49:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Rebar Cost

Edna,

Lowe's has #3 (3/8") rebar in 10' lengths for under $3.  This might fit into 1/2" conduit.

You are running out of time.


http://tinyurl.com/37bl45

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by: Dr Dave @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 13:52:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Great! Thanks for the tip! n/t

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by: Edna Mode @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 22:34:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Good idea.

Rebar inside conduit?

What about fire exit?

What to do with sliding patio door?

You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.

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by: anon.yyz @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 16:40:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

sheets of plywood that you have cut a "window" into

and that "window" is then covered with that flattened metal lattice-looking stuff ... sometimes used in metal shelving.


Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead

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by: KathyinFL @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 19:37:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I can see myself breaking

SIP should my husband become ill and die. I will need help taking care of his body. He's 6'4" and 180 lbs. I'm just a little ole short thing @ 100 lbs.

I can see hubby breaking SIP because his brother's were not prepped, and he'll want to take them stuff. All three live within 2 miles of us.

I can see hubby breaking SIP if I become ill. He'll try to get help, because he will panic, not only for himself, but because of the our girls.

I'm tempted to say I would leave if my girls did get sick.
It's a mother's instinct. If their care reqired more than what I could do for them, I would be on the verg of walking out the door to get help.

Other than that, I don't see anything that could phically get me to leave our property. But than agin, anything is possible, and at this moment, I'm planning for 100 things to go wrong and happen. It'll be that 101 thing we didn't forsee, that will happen.

United we stand: Divided we fall
www.flunewsnetwork.com

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by: cottontop @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 12:49:32 PM UTC

If you discussed it ahead of time,

you could put some food in a box for a brother and tell him where it is.  And another box for another brother somewhere else, just don't see them in the open.  Telephone them or put a note (with directions to the box) in a window if they knock.  Can you have a serious discussion about contagion with DH before it happens?  And talk about decontamination -it's not easy.

About you being sick, I've been thinking of writing out instructions and laminating them, just for times of fear and agitation when it's hard to concentrate.  Like Hillbilly Bill and Eccles talked about doing so their wives can start the generators. 

If we could SIP in time, we wouldn't get it.  Then breaking SIP for some other reason would make no sense because we'd bring it home.  Is that optimistic or what?  "We're clean here, go away!"

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor

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by: Jane @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 22:12:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Door Security

Anon.yyz,

I have several security devices for my doors, but I do not have a sliding glass door, so it is not in my plans.  I would probably treat it the way I would treat a window: install horizontal conduit bars with rebar inserts. 

Whatever makes your home more difficult to enter than your neighbor's should be effective.  Even if someone is bold enough to attempt a break-in at a barred opening, the bars will cause them so much time and effort that you should have plenty of time to undertake appropriate defensive measures.  (But that dicussion is not appropriate at this site.)

Since I have a second floor and an emergency escape ladder, I'm not too worried about a fire escape route.


You are running out of time.


http://tinyurl.com/37bl45

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by: Dr Dave @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 20:23:44 PM UTC