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Has the FAO accepted defeat?

by: SusanC

Fri Mar 16, 2007 at 21:48:23 PM EDT


( - promoted by SusanC)

While scientists around the world are working overtime to find a solution to the threat of a human pandemic that H5N1 brings, the agency tasked with leading global efforts to solve the problem from the veterinary side has apparently already given up the fight.
SusanC :: Has the FAO accepted defeat?
  The chief veterinary officer at the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), Joseph Domenech told Reuters in an interview yesterday that avian flu should be seen as a "permanent" problem, but one that can be controlled with the right procedures. "The virus will be introduced into countries, it's a permanent risk."

There is a difference between long-term risk and permanent risk. 

H5N1 has repeatedly shown its deadliness to humans.  There are no signs that this deadliness is going to reverse any time soon.  As long as it is present in significant amounts where people are in close contact with infected avian hosts, the risk to the world is great. 

We are not talking about `only' another several hundred people dying in the next couple of years. The 1918 pandemic killed an estimated 50 - 100 million people (Updating the accounts: global mortality of the 1918-1920 "Spanish" influenza pandemic. Johnson NP, Mueller J. Bull Hist Med, 2002 76:105-15). Since then, the world population has increased by more than 3-fold.  How much is the lives of 150 - 300 million people worth to Mr Domenech and his colleagues?  Would it be too much to ask them to officially (even hypothetically) assume that we still have the eradication of this threat as a long-term goal?

Lest someone from the FAO or otherwise starts to suggest that we cannot use 1918 figures for comparison, I'd like to point out with all respect that, with the sole exception of the 1918 H1N1 virus, H5N1 is the only other influenza virus that we know of which has repeatedly jumped directly from avian to human hosts without reassortment.  It would be irresponsible to compare this risk to any other virus such as those that caused the pandemics of 1957 or 68.  To do so would be the equivalent of comparing a massive explosion in a conventional explosives depot to one in a nuclear power plant. 

In addition, do we have scientific data supporting this idea of permanence, that we have run out of ways to eradicate this virus, that there are no potentially effective measures on the horizon, even if not currently well-developed?  That we as a civilization are condemned to have this Damocles' sword over us for generations to come?  If so, please feel free to enlighten me in my ignorance. 

Does the FAO have so little faith in science, political will, and the huge amount of talent that are still untapped in the world in finding innovative solutions to this problem?  Because, solutions do not happen accidentally, out of nowhere.  They are the result of focus, commitment, initiative, co-operative thinking, sheer willpower, and, most importantly, leadership.

Let's take, for example, data from various scientists suggesting that domestic ducks are the reservoirs perpetuating this virus, and that these ducks are being moved over long distances as part of routine agricultural practice.  Let's say, for argument's sakes, that given enough financial incentives farmers all around the world can be persuaded to stop rearing them except in bio-secure environments. 

Let's say consumers around the world stop eating duck as a means of putting pressure on countries.
 

How much would it cost?  How long would negotiations and political maneuvering take to achieve this goal?  Again, how much would 150 - 300 million lives be worth, not counting the secondary and tertiary consequences of a 1918-like pandemic today?

Let's take the idea that vaccines targeting virulence antigens might affect the course of viral evolution.  Granted there has not been enough research on this, but what if, in a few years time, we can create veterinary vaccines that target the HA antigen especially the characteristic cleavage site, might there be a chance that we could reverse the evolution of the virus back into the LP form?  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds, but even if it is, isn't that a worthwhile goal to work for?  But, vaccine research needs funding.  Where is the money going to come from if eradication of H5N1 in its current HP form is no longer the goal?

You might say, well, we get rid of it from domestic ducks, it is still present in wild birds or whatever other hidden reservoir there might be.  True, but we don't know that domestic duck isn't the essential and critical component to the evolution of this virus.  And we won't know it unless and until we have taken actions commensurate with the goal of ultimate eradication. 

If we accept HPAI H5N1 as a `permanent' problem now, we will have accepted defeat before we have tried everything possible in our arsenal.  What does Mr Domenech suggest we tell parents of all those tens or hundreds of millions who will die in the next pandemic when they ask us why?  That we tried our best...almost?  That we really wanted to stop this from happening ...but not quite?  That agricultural interests are worth more than their kids' lives?  Or that we no longer cared if any of us have grandchildren, as long as we can continue to have our cosy jobs and stay on good terms with those who seek to influence us?

I also want to ask this question.  As a UN agency, the FAO is mandated to work in the interests and according to the wishes of the 189 member countries.  According to this document on the FAO website, referring to the Sep 2004 document `Recommendations on the Prevention, Control and Eradication of Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI) in Asia',

Both OIE and WHO are key partners of FAO in the effort to prevent further disease spread and to protect the human population. The combined efforts of these international organizations are aimed at the control and eradication of HPAI by decreasing and eventually eliminating the viral load in the environment, assuring the use of proper standards and procedures for diagnostic testing, application of high quality vaccine products, and protection against occupational hazards in the implementation of programs.

Furthermore, it also says "Recommendations of FAO/OIE/WHO conferences held in Bangkok and Rome, in February 2004 are still relevant and applicable."

I'd like to ask Mr Domenech to confirm whether his statements indicate a change in policy goal from the above document.
If yes, whether the 189 member countries have been consulted, whether the proper statutory procedures have been followed, to arrive at this change.  If they have taken a vote at some point, I want to know how my country, the UK, voted.  I want to know how the US, China, Japan, the other EU member states voted.  I want to know exactly what they voted on. 

There may be some who are ready to accept defeat.  I'm not, and, I suspect, neither are 99.9% of the world's parents, if they fully understood the implications of a pandemic caused by the H5N1 virus directly switching hosts to humans.

-----------------

UPDATE March 19

For the official policy position of FAO/OIE prior to now, download and read this document A Global Strategy for the Progressive Control of Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI)

3.1 Goal
The overall goal of the strategy is to progressively control and eradicate HPAI from the domestic poultry sector in Asia and Europe, and prevent further introduction of HPAI in non-infected countries....

4.2 Control and eradication is feasible - learning from the success stories
The tools, methodologies and approaches outlined above have been successfully used by many countries to control and eradicate HPAI infections in Europe (Italy and the Netherlands) and North America (Mexico, USA and Canada).

To date, HPAI H5N1 outbreaks have been stamped out in Hong Kong SAR, Japan, Republic of Korea, DPR Korea and Malaysia. Thailand, after 14 difficult months, has made tremendous progress in controlling the disease through enhanced surveillance, strict biosecurity measures and culling of infected poultry. The disease has now been almost eradicated in the commercial poultry sector (sectors 1, 2 and 3, see Table 3) and probably pushed back into village poultry and free-ranging domestic ducks in the Central Plain....

FWIW, I don't personally see eradication as likely any time soon.  OTOH, organizations like the OIE and FAO live and die by formal procedures, so I'm curious as to whether changes are being made in a
way that is not immediately obvious to the public... Or it could be that reuters had been unclear in how they presented the story?

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H5N1
That's the impression I am getting- that's it's going to be primarily a  chronic avian disease with occasional disease seen in humans, much like rabies or anthrax.

It is better to look ahead and prepare than to look back and regret.

chronic or long term
is not the same as permanent.  Officials don't, or at least shouldn't, use words carelessly in media interviews.  I want to know whether there is a change of policy.  It will affect a lot of things, eg shut down funding for research, give ammunition to those who want to shirk responsibility, and just generally favor agricultural interests over human health.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
co-operative thinking and win-win
I was shocked to learn that pigs are fed with chicken waste in many places, massively.

There's this, well, let me backtrack a bit.

Economies are transfer of goods and services.  The whole biosphere is an economy.  It makes sense to have microscopic germs that feed on waste, then plants feed on germs or their output, etc.  The same atoms go from molecule to molecule in the process.  Life for all involved.  So far, so good.

Thing is, if we engage in, excuse me, "rituals of mortuory canibalism" we may get kuru disease.  If we feed vegetarian animals with animal proteins, we may have mad cow disease or similar diseases.  Hey, I want those atoms, but, please, not in a molecule that's a prion or an H5N1!

I'm not an expert in any of these things, but it makes sense to think about it in terms of several (some say five) kingdoms of nature.  (I'd rather say "queendoms", judging by the tremendous role of women in this site and elsewhere - but I disgress.)  The idea is that there are also five design principles (I stress number 3, but all apply!):

Five Design Principles

There are five kingdoms of nature - bacteria, algae, fungi, plants and animals - and for billions of years these five kingdoms have worked together to be a highly productive and adaptive system. Along with the five kingdoms, there are five key design principles that each kingdom (except man!) generally adheres to:

1. Whatever is waste for one is a nutrient or food for another species belonging to another kingdom;

2. What is a toxin for one organism, is a nutrient or neutral for another belonging to another kingdom;

3. Whenever highly complex ecosystems operate, viruses remain inactive and even disappear without causing harm passing through at least 2 other kingdoms;

4. The more local, the more diverse a system, the more productive, the more resilient; and,

5. Whenever species of 5 different kingdoms live and interact in an autopoetic system, they can integrate and separate all matter at ambient temperature and pressure.

If that is true, and I tend to believe it is, maybe we can inactivate viruses if we biodigest them (bacteriae at work) and then let the effluent pass through algae (another kingdom) instead of feeding them directly to animals?  Algae have no receptors for H5N1 that we know of, do they?  So maybe farmers can have biodigesters and make more money (grow their own energy) while they play a safer game for all of us?  What other creative ways are there that might take us around this dangerous spot that we've created for ourselves?

It may be both wise and posible (i.e., fully desirable) to treat Nature with respect, in order to earn the same for us as "one species among many"?

Giving up is not only irresponsible: it just, erm, doesn't make the best use of all available information.

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


yep, that just about summarizes it.
Giving up is not only irresponsible: it just, erm, doesn't make the best use of all available information.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
Responsible ripples in a balenced system
Lugon,

  Our actions have effects. I see your point. It is all one big interconnected system with feed back loops. (not pun intended.)

  "Algae have no receptors for H5N1 that we know of, do they?" -fact is stranger than fiction. We may not know till it happens. It should not, but there are always adaptive mechenisms at play.

  Hopefully there can be some negative feed back on viruses like MadCow and H5N1 and others. That we value ourselves enough not to be removed from the system. A system that ran befor us and can run without us.

Kobie

 


[ Parent ]
The most alarming thing I've read recently,
that seems to have profound implications, is that China is the source of much of the AI vaccine used in places like Egypt where AI is becoming (or is already) endemic. I guess I never stopped to think that AI vaccines themselves are imported too. We talk all the time about the inevitable disruptions in the supply chains for things like medicinals for humans, and I suspect that we've overlooked the disruptions in veterinarian supplies that we'll also experience when pandemic flu gets underway.

At that point, shortages in AI vaccine will undoubtedly leave us faced with very difficult to control AI in poultry (which can lead to futher opportunities for mutation in the virus) and with poultry flocks (significant food sources) that must be culled and will not safely be able to be replaced. The implications for the food supply of affected countries, during a pandemic, are significant.

Maybe Domenech has looked ahead to this scenario and sees it as inevitable.  If so, is there a possibility that their new approach is to just let AI "burn out" and hope that it will?  I am beginning to think so, and that this is the approach they're leaning towards, unfortunately (there won't be enough vaccine for either poultry or humans).  On the other hand, I see no scientific support for the notion that AI will burn itself out on its own either. 

They seem to be having little success with their effort to put out these brush fires.  Instead of giving up, however, they'd best not throw in the towel while they still have time for a bit more advanced and creative thinking.  That time is now.  There won't be much time or margin left for such efforts if they don't get right down to it and find the solutions.

It may be as simple as ceasing duck farming, or changing those traditional practices.  As someone who lives in the heart of Lyme's disease territory, however, I can tell you that dealing with a disease in a straightforward manner, if it has local economic implications, is a tough sell.  Here, refusal to talk about Lyme's (property values, and all), reluctance to admit the extent of the problem (every family has been affected), limits the kind of research and response that would be able to defeat the problem in its entirety.  If ducks are a key reservoir for AI, and a key element in fighting it, somebody like Domenech would have to face it head on, and gain funding for efforts to compensate local farmers and educate the public towards changing their dietary habbits for some period of time. I suspect that that will be an unphill a battle South Asia and a battle that will step on a lot of cultural and economic toes.  But it's called leadership, and that's what Domenech and those agencies are supposed to do.


And then yes, before someone says it,
there's the entire question as to whether we're giving the poultry the right vaccines in the first place.  More research and leadership is needed by Domenech and the FDA, OIE, etc., there too. 

If that problem is solved and we still have a pandemic, we'll still have the same supply chain problems in getting those AI vaccines distributed, too.  What's "Plan B"?


[ Parent ]
personally, I'm not optimistic
about eradication.  But there is a difference between pessimism and an official agency like the FAO declaring that we are going to accept this as the status quo.

There are lots of issues with AI vaccines.  The Chinese official vaccine (made by properly licensed state companies) is probably as good as you're going to get for the current purpose.  It's the illegal unlicensed ones that were causing problems of inadequate protection.  But as good as it gets is not good enough, IMHO, when we succeed more or less to control poultry outbreaks while at the same time allowing the virus to freely circulate undetected and continue to infect humans and evolve towards a human-adapted strain.  That impasse, IMHO, has to be broken. 

In addition, the question that I have, which I admit is thinking out of the box, is whether the concept of taking away the component that causes the virus to be HP in the first place before making the vaccine is the best option.  There is no scientific data that I can find that has really asked, let alone answered, that question.  It's just that the vaccines were developed in reaction to the fact that the virus kills the eggs used in culture, and they had to find a way around it. 

Now I am asking this question because we do have an option technologically of using only the HA protein in the exact original form.  Don't know if anybody is interested or thinking about it this way...



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
It may be as simple as ceasing duck farming
That is very naive. What if it were as simple as killing all dogs and cats? Do you think Americans would be willing to do it?

Even more convoluted. What if the some virus were endemic in the North American deer population, but was then picked up by migrating birds and killing only folks in Asia. Would we be willing to hunt down and kill all deer? Even if we would do it, it would be impossible.

I have read this stuff for a couple years now. I read all the doomsday projections. All the "there really is nothing we can do if and when it comes, just prepare the best you can." So there is nothing we can really do, but we feel to guilty to just do nothing!

H5N1 will kill a lot of us, or it won't, and there is not much we can do to affect this one way or the other. And it is just pure realism to accept this as fact. There are things we are doing that may or may not be making it more or less of a probability, but the world is such a complex and chaotic system, that we really don't know what we can do, and if it makes the situation better or worse.

It is sort of like global warming. Is it real? Is it not? Is it something we are doing. Is is some cosmological affect of the sun? Is it the result of increased volcanic activity? Is it coal burning power plants? Are there things we can change to make it better, or are we just trying to say we can change things to make ourselves feel better?

When I think about AI and come to this conclusion, I am reminded of a Shakespear quote from "Julius Ceasar" I had to memorize in high school... "Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once. Of all the wonders that I yet have heard, It seems to me most strange that men should fear; Seeing that death, a necessary end, Will come when it will come."

END RANT!!! ;-)


[ Parent ]
moves have to be acceptable
so maybe there are better ways to raise ducks.

"Better": safer, more profit, less hassle, keep or renew interactions with local system, etc.

In the end, we're interested in "better for me as a duck farmer" because otherwise we won't have the "better for us as a global population".

Someone please jump from a plane, take notes, think hard, come up with a solution or a number of partial solutions, then tell all the parties involved?

What information do we have?  What information do we need?  How do we get it?  Anyone on the ground?  With knowledge about business side, culture side, interactions side?  Open a "cooperative thinking" diary for that purpose?

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
Who benefits from FAO giving up the fight?
It is not poultry vaccine manufacturers. Look at human vaccine manufacturers. We humans only have two options:

1. prepare and SIP, avoid getting infected during pandemic

2. accept the risks of side effects of unproven human vaccines.


You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.


why not vaccine manufacturers?
and the agricultural lobby in general.

Right now as soon as H5N1 is found in any country, other countries immediately ban imports.  Some countries also ban imports from places where poultry is routinely vaccinated.  That could change if vaccination becomes a routine method of 'control'.  Which appears to be where they are headed, if you read this http://news.yahoo.co... news report

Global vaccination tops UN bird flu summit agenda
Fri Mar 16, 4:12 PM ET

ROME (AFP) - A United Nations bird flu conference will take place this month in Italy charged with implementing a global strategy for the vaccination of threatened species, organisers said Friday.

The Verona summit will allow experts to exchange information on the fight against the virus and look at the financial and logistical implications of a worldwide vaccination effort, a statement from the organisers said.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
as a world citizen, i can't say i ... well, FAO ...
Ok, I think FAO etc are one player in the game.  They have important things to do and sometimes they want to do them and sometimes they even actually do them.  Same for each player, no?

I'm more concerned about finding other ways generally.  We can talk about hard sells.  But we can also look for softer sells, like combining energy from biogas with safety for all involved.  Who wins while changing the world for the better?

Back to Earth.

Do we have people in Indo and Vietnam etc who can tell us if there's even a slight posibility that they will change their agricultural ways and benefit from that change while strengthening the levees for the rest of us too?  What would folks on the ground need?

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


I can almost certainly tell you that it's not going to happen.
Rice is not just a food item, it's not even just a way of life.  It IS LIFE, to the Vietnamese.  You will never be able to convince anyone there to stop eating rice and try some potatoes, perhaps.  It ain't gonna happen.

Now, ducks, that may be something that's possibly negotiable.  We will miss all the yummy foods that are made from duck, but for you and me, it's no big deal.  For the poorer villagers, that's just a lot less protein they will have to be able to feed their stick-thin children, but if the duck is sick, ya know, the duck is sick. 


[ Parent ]
I agree with you
that's why I'm actually more interested in innovative solutions, such as different ways of approaching vaccines, rather than completely relying on changing farming practice.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
UPDATE
added to top diary.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


The UN has accepted the fact they are unable to prevent an H5N1 Pandemic
As I understand it, the UN, FAO, and WHO know full well that H5N1 is almost certainly going to become pandemic and cause a severe 1918-like disaster.  The problem is that there is nothing they can do to prevent or stop it.  The 87% of earthlings who dwell in the developing and underdeveloped world don't have the resources to cope with a pandemic of this magnitude.  The 13% of those living in the advanced societies could prepare much better for the coming pandemic if they wished to but lack sufficient focus to do so. 

The UN and its subsidiary organizations have decided that there is nothing to be gained from making more of the coming pandemic than they already have since the majority of the worlds population are unable to respond to it in any meaningful way.  The UN figures the advanced nations have the information indicating the current risk from pandemic and are able to take care of themselves if they had the political will to do so. 

H5N1 is not a permanent threat.  As with all past pandemic influenza strains, it will roll over the human population and then become endemic as was seen with H1N1 Spanish Flu and the Asian and Hong Kong flu subsequently.  Once herd immunity is acquired to H5N1 it will just become the common seasonal flu as occurred with the other pandemic strains. 

What we are seeing today is novel.  The evolution of a pandemic influenza virus from the avian world to the mammalian.  This has never been witnessed before and our reactions to this transition is understandable given our ability to predict the consequences of this development based upon past pandemics.

While the UN organizations have not given up hope for a mild or moderate pandemic, they have accepted the fact that they are powerless to do anything to prevent the coming pandemic or cope with its consequences if severe, once it occurs.  IMO this is the attitude of the leaders of the developed nations as well. 

The upshot of this is that the pandemic aware must understand that they will be on their own during this emergency.  Being forewarned is a very significant advantage as it allows for taking the steps necessary to weather the pandemic storm when it comes.  It is my conviction that the vast majority of people on this planet will not be ready for the pandemic irrespective of what the UN or national governments do between now and then.  A severe pandemic is simply not something that can be adequately prepared for on the national or international level.

Grattan Woodson, MD


Grattan, I think you are correct
All that is going on now is simply re-arranging the deck chairs.  IMHO unless there is a big break through in virus
research......  There have been a couple of leads which look promising, but even if they pan out, the race will be to the swift, in this case, H5N1 or another avian virus.  How many will heed the facts as we know them here on FW, PFI, or the other few sites?  A few thousand perhaps?  As we have found in spite of our efforts, not many of us who are informed have had much luck persuading others.

It is heartening to see some of the newbies so full of hope and doing their best, but to this old fluwikian, the whole thing is very discouraging at this point. 

Experience has taught me that there are few conspiracies, but much incompetence


[ Parent ]
On hope
It is heartening to see some of the newbies so full of hope and doing their best, but to this old fluwikian, the whole thing is very discouraging at this point.

What alternative is there except despair?  ;-)

As I said on a different issue,

Hope is not a plan, but it's better than the certainty of darkness.

In this instance, it is not just (vain) hope, but it has to do with policy and goal setting in an important institution.  I did receive a response from the FAO that there has not been any change in policy, which was indeed welcome, but the world has to be encouraged to not just accept status quo, but continue to innovate to find solutions.  That is the main message that I wanted to deliver.



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
shift in perception
people see two things here

fluwikians also see ... h2h

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
My God, lugon
your surpass yourself!

fluwikians also see ... h2h

ROFLMAO



All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
i'm not entirely sure about our inability to mitigate
I think it will start if Nature wants to start it.  We're like a few hands trying to stop the rain leaking through many tiny holes in a wide roof.  Indo improves?  Have Africa, etc.

But I still think there may be some things we can do.  Precautionary measures will spread like wildfire, and we are doing good things at finding what those things are.  Fear will run high, but that will also mean - well, it MAY mean - that we'll stop things locally faster than ever before.

I don't know about Calcutta.  Can't even imagine it.  Can someone lend a hand with that?

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
link to worldchanging and growing rice and ducks
http://www.worldchan...

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.

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