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Efforts To Improve in Connecticut

by: DemFromCT

Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 08:08:22 AM EDT


( - promoted by DemFromCT)

I had the opportunity to be an observer at CT's latest tabletop exercise, held yesterday in Berlin, CT.

The format was quite different than the regional tabletops. In the earlier regional exercise, set up for school superintendents and town-oriented work groups, each town saw a series of videos constructed like an evening newscast, with increasingly dire scenarios presented. Very useful, especially for those more or less starting from the beginning.

Yesterday's was more a statewide reality check. The 30 or so 'players' were issued a draft of the next iteration of the CT pandemic plan (I wasn't a player and I haven't seen it). Using the draft, the players were then asked to address four sweeping topics: surveillance, communication, antivirals and vaccines, and school dismissal/ community mitigation. State people played themselves and assumed their roles. So did town and regional health officials.

DemFromCT :: Efforts To Improve in Connecticut
The observers took notes, and had the opportunity to comment at the end about what seemed a stretch, and where the holes might be (not detailed, simply by topic).

By doing this inside player/outside observer 'gap analysis', glaring needs were identified so as to be reworked before the plans become final.

Lessons learned: it'd be a good idea for school student dismissals (aka school closing though the building stays open for use as kitchen/shelter/whatever) to be ordered by the Governor, as previously surmised. Individual school districts and health officials do have that power, but are reluctant to use it. The network of health officials is strong (and - separately learned - the school superintendents also have informal networks) and efforts will be made for neighboring district uniformity. Still, one district can still choose to act differently than another without the Governor's office coordinating.

In 2003, CT passed the Public Health Emergency Response Act,"strengthening certain powers and authorities of the Governor, the Commissioner of Public Health and local health directors during a public health emergency." Assuming this is invoked, this bioterror-era law does allow for increased discretion by public health and shields them from legal consequences if acting in the state's interest.

Whenever isolation or quarantine came up for discussion yesterday (and that was rarely, and in passing only), it was preceded by the word 'voluntary'. This is useful, if at all, only early on. State legal personnel were 'players'.

The advice on individual prep is being revised (still in draft), and CT is moving to an 'at least two weeks' message from no message at all. Those two words ('at least') are slated to be included.

I contributed my suggestions for more public education about these plans (e.g., student dismissals require parent preparation), and had the opportunity to indroduce Flu Wiki to the audience (I was asked to say a few words about it when I suggested  - referring to the CDC's "be first, be right, be credible" - the state might be credible and even right about information, but they'd never be first. People who knew about FW then asked me to elaborate).

This tabletop concentrated on situational awareness and testing the existing plans. It was a very seriously taken exercise and clearly everyone had done their homework. An outside the state (from WA, actually) facilitator expert ran the exercise. The gap analysis generated then becomes the next step in plan revision and implementation.


From what I gather, the CDC still has to sign off on the draft plan before CT can will publish it.

The state has come a long way over the last year, even though there's a long way to go. Statewide electronic networks have yet to be implemented for electronic data exchange (surveillance), but fax and phone back-up was emphasized rather than getting overly dependent on technology. And whereas a 'graded response' for category 1 or 2 as well as 5 was designed, a 1918-style scenario was used for planning purposes, with emphasis on the severe end.

Although we're still screwed if it hits tomorrow, we are seeing signs of progress. I expect the next CT pandemic plan iteration to be an improvement on the current one, and (most importantly) this is NOT a "checklist complete, sign me off, I'm done" apprach. This is serious work to get it right. Every player was taking responsibility to implement the plan as it is, and trying to anticipate the consequences to improve it (incuding getting input from the observers). That was the basic message I took away from the exercise, and kudos to the organizers.

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this should be taken together
with SusanC's AMA/CDC report to get a snapshot of how this is all being pulled together (or not) at state and fed levels. it is so hard to do this - all the criticism in the world (too slow, not enough, etc) doesn't change that, justified though it might be.

Why CDC sign off?
DemFromCT,

  Thanks for the post.

  1) Why does the CDC need to sign off on the plan? If things go bad TPTB will not be there. I can see why the CDC, OSHA, et al, would want to ensure there are no contraditions in plans. That the two fit hand in glove.

  2) This is a state wide plan - right? Localities still need their plans.

Kobie


this is a statewide plan
and localities still have their own work to do. But CT is a relatively small state, and this certainly covers much of what will need to be done regarding surveillance and the concept of schoold dismissal and overall coordination early on.

After that, all politics is local.

and as you note, CDC needs to know what all 50 states are doing so our neighbors in NY (I'm on the border) and MA are not developing radically different plans.


[ Parent ]
I wonder when someon will test a plan to see if it works
DemFromCT,

  "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions." - I forget who said this.

  I wonder when someone will test a state plan to see if it works.

  It sounds like the plan is mostly for schools. Where utilities, business, libraries, transportation, etc involved?

Kobie


[ Parent ]
really
vaccine and antivirals? - and how about mortuary surge?

[ Parent ]
...
sorry Kobie ;-)
  think I missed a reply spot.

[ Parent ]
Perfectly ok, thanks for the question CrFullMoon n/t


[ Parent ]
haven't seen mortuary surge
the lack of vaccine and antivirals was discussed, and the need to prioritize that which we have, and the absolute need to educate the public and make them shareholders in this (my 2 cents)

[ Parent ]
IOW
this was a realistic stock-taking of where we are and what would we do today. This was not a 'well, we'll just set up mass vaccination clinics'.

Also discussed was the likelihood that some HCW would not show for work, or if they did would not want to return home (or wouldn't be allowed to by their family).


[ Parent ]
and how will they get over their dread of opening the can of worms
for the public?
The past couple of years, it seems their only thought state/fed/locally is to avoid public discussion of questions they have no solutions for. (When will pandemic start? What about my kids' education? What about vaccine? What about my job, what about my bills, What about taxes, What about paychecks, You think I'll work without level 3 PPE ? You think I'll leave my kids? You think I'll risk my life for this job/volunteer for this unworkable plan? Why did you say we'd all get what we needed from the SNS? What do you mean, people will die who might normally be saved?!) (Why aren't candidates discussing how they'd lead before during and after pandemic?) They really want to delay adjustment reactions until during pandemic ??

Public discussion/mobilization and real PPCCs look to be the only thing that stands a chance. Look how a few bad cases can swamp a hotline or hospital.

How do officals think they can spin their way out of consequences to themselves of letting the public get blindsided? Do they think they will be unaffected by the lingering societal/economic consequences?
"At least two weeks" of supplies - and most of the public currently knows of no threat to really need those.

Not drilling mortuary surges, despite knowing how hard it will be to make an effective vaccine, in quantity, this year or next year, (or next year) ?
"The public can't handle the truth"
- but, their taxes can pay officals to not warn them ? Time is running out; Reckless Endangerment shouldn't be official practice.


[ Parent ]
that's the toughest and steepest hill to climb
but they are realizing they have to bite the bullet, even if they don't know how. That's a change from last year, even iof it's not universally accepted that the public needs to be invovled.

This is a work in progress. ;-)  If you bite their heads off, you'll only make it harder to do.


[ Parent ]
with the public
unknowingly playing russian roulette everyday, I can't be a happy camper. Don't want more of the public to be willing to boot people out of office? Tell the public now; so they can work together to prevent preventable deaths and minimize PTSD. (I'm nice compared to how some of the public will turn out, via the current course.)

"Lie, Deny, and Act Surprised", or, "I was only following what the higher-ups said to do (even if it was obviously going to fail)" isn't going to work for something the scope of pandemic year.

Where's the pre-pandemic mental health; for the officials? The UN recognized it as an issue:

"Direct psychological reactions of distress
(anxiety, panic and denial) related to the release of the Pandemic Planning and Preparedness Guidelines ..."may occur"...

pdf p 37 http://www.humanitar...

Who is responsible for ..."psychosocial interventions" for planning staff?

Their "denial"/avoidance will cost lives; we can't keep gambling there won't be a cluster that gets a superspreader/airline connection, or there won't be an H5N1 infection here that goes pandemic. They will try and have "a work in progress" but, "too early to tell the public", until The Four Horseman's cows come home, if they continue to use business-as-normal, by-the-book, as excuses ahead of solving the, "being able to meet needs or become part of the problem" societal challenge.


[ Parent ]
mental health was present yesterrday
and part of the process.

Don't misunderstand me, crfullmoon, I want to hear and see the criticism; it's important. But I hope to convince the state to do what NY did when they sent us the DRAFT ventilator triage protocol for public comment prior to adoption.


[ Parent ]
All the critisim?
DemFromCt,

  Prision - state and local
  Prisoin - capacity - can it be quadrupled?
  Courts - how can case be heard if courts are closed?
  Courts - traffic - will tickets be handed out?
  Juvinile and Domestic - who gets the kids
  ATF classes for conceled carry permits? Right now it is an eight to sixteen hour course and up to  45 day waite. Some states like DC, Ohio and Mass. don't like folks to have firearms. Other states are just the opposit (TX, Fla, and most southern states.
  Yes one town even required gun ownershit and ammunition
Source
http://en.wikipedia....
and
http://ecclesia.org/...

  I mention this because even with auxillary police there may not be enough folks to handle the number of calls and case load.

  Backup internet access?
  Radio stations - where they included?

  Locations for mass graves?

  Sewage treatment plants?

Kobie


[ Parent ]
I was thrilled bcause
wasn';t there, the homeland security people brought up prisons and their needs (some work being done, I don't know what it is yet - to be incorporated in the plan). It's the first time I've been to a meeting and I wasn't the one bringing up prisons!

[ Parent ]
I'm so glad they are catching on.
  I have no idea how to handle the prision problem.

  Some of the people can be quarentined but the guards, workers, and staff members can not.

  New people can be isolated but there are requirements to let people out of cells and not keep them locked down 24x7. Which if TV or power fails the situation will get ugly.

  I suspect there will be a huge influx of new people.

  This will truly ovewhelm any prision medical facilities. Some prisioners are on certian medications - for physical or meantal health reasons.

  How do you let people out if there are no trials? Folks who are just held on bail awaiting trial.

  Then there is the whole segragation issue. Men / women, child molesters, etc.

  If people are let out I doubt they have any preps, money or stored food.

  IMHO  city prisions are the lowest item on the budget list.

Kobie


[ Parent ]
well, these are valid questions
but the thing is, and many here will not agree with either myself or Dem, being right, morally and/or practically, is not enough to win you the points to get people to do stuff.

Many tend to think that people will do the right thing if you keep telling them 'the truth'.  The reality is, they don't.  Most of the time it is because either they have not become fully convinced yet, and they needed to verify many pieces of informations or ideas, plus work on some adjustment reactions in their beliefs, core values and professional habits, before they are even ready to admit to themselves change is necessary.

After that, if you work in an institution, you still have to go through the institutional process, which most of the time means trying to convince everyone else up and down the chain, and wait for THEM to get through the process that you just got through.

All of that takes time, courage, determination, and a big leap of faith, because, if there are very few other people in their field who have become convinced, it is very hard to not keep doubting yourself, and keep up the momentum.

The reason my I'm saying all this here, is because I also started out with a more simplistic paradigm, that if only they GET IT, they would do the right thing.  And if they don't they must be either very stupid or most likely people of dubious goodwill.  I learnt very quickly, and that's the benefit of being there and getting to know people in person, that that is not true at all, and that there are plenty of legitimate reasons why well-meaning people working their a*** off can still take forever to reach where you want them to go.  And maybe never, depending on what challenges there are!

So what do we do about this?  I don't have perfect answers except to try and understand them and their constraints as much as possible, and see if I can either help or offer alternative suggestions so we can all get through the blockages that much faster.

Telling them the truth is important, absolutely.  But it's a long way from being enough.  Certainly repeatedly taking them to task over the same points, over and over again, is definitely not the way to get them to trust you enough to let you know where you might help them!


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
SusanC - agreed.
  My sister in law still believes that if she cries help someone will come and help her. "After all she is going to starve if they do not."

  I have tried getting through to her but to no avail yet.

  Like you I will keep trying.

Kobie


[ Parent ]
too bad top-down didn't reassign
anyone who didn't think pandemic was possible or who didn't want to tell the public the truth. Planning has been given to the exactly wrong people in some cases. They are too busy, have other priorities; then let them do their day jobs, and pandemic preparedness should have been tasked to actual PPCC's made of all the communities' stakeholders given the scientific information behind pandemic alert, who wanted to be preparing to cope, since there is no fed/state outside aid/magic bullet. Feds should have froze funding for failing to have PPCCs. (Not, "add it to the "all-hazards" committee- have the PPCC be the newer bigger open-to-the-public tent the old committee is inside.)

You can think they're nice people; you are getting more access to these planners because of your professional titles. They're still on the Reckless Endangement side of the ledger. They don't want "help" from anyone not issuing their paycheck/outranking them. So- they should be removed from the process.
Plenty of citizens getting shut out the past 21 months, that would have given timely information and action for free. Community groups, like malachi's church, aren't getting mobilized, because public health (even after HHS's little summit) is telling them not to act, when they find out they know about pandemic. (And, slandering the netizen, for helping get the church get ready to tell their members about pandemic year preparedness and approach other churches about the food pantry problem. Why does that ph person get to keep their job? Is that official going to be able to feed their community if pandemic breaks out this year, after taking the church and malchi to task for trying to get people to start preparing?)

The public is going to get a rude awakening, because too many still trust people they've gotten "to know in person" who are misinforming or misleading them; "they wouldn't do that", "I know them", "they'd warn us if there was any problem".

If the same points still are going to fail to meets needs and cause death and suffering, then they are still going to hear about them.

The public pays their salaries and they consider us sheep, and expendable, as long as they personally make it though this, salaries and vaccine priorities intact? There's a reason the same points are still a problem, 21 months on, but it's not because some person on the internet is noticing.
It is because they all keep on about the Emperor's New Clothes in progress; their plans will not work.
The public doesn't even all have to act; but the officials have the duty to tell all, so the "common sense" litmus test" can be being applied to plans at the community level, as an informed public decides how to prepare.


[ Parent ]
you are right
If a large country with nukes attacked the US (to use a graphic example), there would be no 2 years of meetings and meetings about future meetings, with stakeholders, focus groups, meetings about how to best send a message to people who plan to plan, etc.

Immediate action would be taken, because of the immediate need, and because those contingencies have been thought about already, really planned for, and in many cases (at least by the military), practiced.

The planning and talking for years, circling slowly, ever so slowly, towards some actual action, will be just fine if and only if:

1.  Influenza pandemic is still years away. 

AND

2.  The attack rate and CFR will be quite mild.


[ Parent ]
Did this table top exercise in Connecticut last 2 years?
Did any one in this exercise mention:


1.  Influenza pandemic is still years away.

AND

2.  The attack rate and CFR will be quite mild.



You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.


[ Parent ]
Did you understand what I said?
All I'm saying is IF H5N1 goes pandemic in, say, the next 6 months to a year, and/or has a CFR and attack rate at least as severe as in 1918, and the General Public and organizations, both private and public, do not know/have not heard/don't take seriously the need to prepare for it, many people will die who might not died otherwise.  The timing is of great import.  If there is no pandemic for quite a few years, maybe these slow maneuvers will do some good.  But they are exceedlingly slow, and my contention is that it needn't be that way.

Don't you think that if there was a nuke attack or threat of nuke attack on the US that it wouldn't take years of meetings to figure out what to do and how to tell the public (and said organizations) what they can do to protect themselves and those under their care or watch?

Okay, so the gears of government grind really slowly.  But that doesn't mean it's an inescapable natural law.  People could do things differently.  Most likely they won't.  But we're not talking about the law of gravity or the speed of light that can't be changed.


[ Parent ]
You are right,
grind slowly indeed.

But they are exceedlingly slow, and my contention is that it needn't be that way.

It's hard to say whether a nuke situation would have brought faster responses, cos we need to bear in mind that the development of nuclear weapons and analysis of nuclear war risks etc etc had gone on for half a century.  The awareness that pandemics can cause catastrophe on a scale similar to nuclear war had only started a few years ago.  There are those who are still not convinced. 

I'm not saying they are right, just saying the work to bring everyone on the same page is much lengthier than an existing known threat with plans and protocols that had gone through many generations of development.


All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
You haven't answered my questions.
Did any one say those things at the Connecticut exercise?


1.  Influenza pandemic is still years away.

AND

2.  The attack rate and CFR will be quite mild.

and did any one say it's going to take 2 years of meetings for the Connecticut table top exercise to conclude?

You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.


[ Parent ]
BeWell, I asked twice, and since your are avoiding the answer,
I will quote the head comment of this diary. No one said years away or mild pandemic and you don't know the table top will take another 2 years to complete.


The state has come a long way over the last year, even though there's a long way to go. Statewide electronic networks have yet to be implemented for electronic data exchange (surveillance), but fax and phone back-up was emphasized rather than getting overly dependent on technology. And whereas a 'graded response' for category 1 or 2 as well as 5 was designed, a 1918-style scenario was used for planning purposes, with emphasis on the severe end.

Although we're still screwed if it hits tomorrow, we are seeing signs of progress. I expect the next CT pandemic plan iteration to be an improvement on the current one, and (most importantly) this is NOT a "checklist complete, sign me off, I'm done" apprach. This is serious work to get it right. Every player was taking responsibility to implement the plan as it is, and trying to anticipate the consequences to improve it (incuding getting input from the observers). That was the basic message I took away from the exercise, and kudos to the organizers.

Yours and crfullmoon's characterization of the Connectcut table top exercise was misinformation or misleading information in the context of this event. Needless to say, this is another example of those who scream non-stop "tell the truth" propagate their distorted version of what "the truth" is. If any one calls flu bloggers fear or rumor mongers, remember what you posted. At the very least, you are unfair to some of the people who were working so hard on finding gaps in the pandemic response in order to improve it.

You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.


[ Parent ]
I don't answer trick ?s
Seems as though you are a little on edge.

[ Parent ]
You are deflecting. I didn't ask when did you beat your spouse.
I asked direct questions for you to prove specific statements or suggestions you made. You could have additional information that prompted you to make those statements or suggestions that some one at the table top exercise said those things.

You certainly have no trouble making those points up.

It's not my business to estimate your mental or emotional state. I am not your shrink. A good point is a good point, which you haven't made.

Back to our regular programming.

You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.


[ Parent ]
if I may intrude
This exercise was a real and genuine effort to improve. Neither the organizers nor the participants nor the commenters  show bad faith ;-)

it is true that no matter what you try to do, someone will be unhappy with you for something. Maybe it's something that has nothing to do with you altogether.

An exercise to improve a plan doesn't solve all the issues, that's for sure. but take it for what it is - a valuable effort to improve our current status. Every such effort should be applauded.


[ Parent ]
well, you are entitled to your opinion
you are getting more access to these planners because of your professional titles.

It may be hard to believe but in the often very distinguished audiences that I've been to, my single primary physician's degree is worth close to nothing.  And I've seen plenty of people with much more distinguished CV's than I get completely ignored, sidelined, or ridiculed because of what they say or do.

I have no illusion whatsoever that everything that I've had to do, I had to win every inch of it by my credibility, hard work, and willingness to concede when I am mistaken, on top of being willing to speak truth to power.  I don't think any of you have any idea how scary it was the first time I spoke at the IOM meeting; I was only able to do that because of the inspiring speech from Harvey Fineberg.  I have to remember to thank him one of these days.  ;-)

If you cannot accept what I say or what anyone else says from their own first hand experiences, that's fine by me.  I would just like to ask whether what you are saying are first hand experiences as well?

Even then, it is not an either/or thing.  That either you or me or someone are making the correct observations, based on whatever personal experiences or values, beliefs and biases.  The important question for me personally is not whether who is right but what I or anyone can do about it. 

I cannot do anything if I perceive the problem as residing in someone else.  Because then they have control.  So I agree that officials have the duty to tell, as I have taken time and made the effort to write out in this diary on the government's duty to inform in the human rights context.  And I sent the link to those who I thought could make a judgment about this and maybe, if I have persuaded them, it may add 1 or 2 points to the balance of whatever debate that is going on in places that I do not have access. 

If I or anyone do not take any actions but feel that we own the truth just by saying it, I'm sorry, I just don't see any chance of creating change at all.

At the end of the day, the test is NOT whether we said the right thing, but whether what we said or did made a difference.




All 'safety concerns' are hypothetical.  If not, they'd be called side effects...


[ Parent ]
half-closed wiki approach to panflu plan developement, maybe?
I just wonder, if what your neighbors do is an issue (and it is), if there could be an intranet or virtual-intranet wiki, with a page or group of pages for every state, set up with permissions so that each can see and edit their own group of pages, and see and comment on their neighbor's groups of pages.  This scheme would be with a closed-wiki structure just for "developement" purposes.

Then, there would be a "stable" set of wikipages with signed-off copies of the pages that are to go public (no, i don't expect mobile phones of people, and maybe the localisation of a non-protected lot of tami, should go public) ... If the "stable" pages are pmwiki-like (a text file for each page) then maybe there would be a script to turn that into a pdf with yesternight's version (release as early and as often as liked-needed).

And of course this could be a fractal thing, with even more private pages for the sections of the plan that are still very much in developement (hey, tami distribution or very bad scenarios are still a very rough draft, etc) - but even the private pages would have the "laundry list" of things they expect to eventually get done.

Then there would be a number of butterfly personel reading changes everywhere in order to make people aware of common issues etc.

How's that for an idea?  If this is done, even if it's done locally, the source code would be useful to others, so please make this open if at all posible!

Maybe this could speed things up tremendously, or maybe not.  What do you think?

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
who would use it?
I'd guess 80% of yesterday's audience has no idea what blogs and wikis are.

[ Parent ]
there would have to be lots of ease-out and hand-holding, as in
hey, you have this one document (wikipage) to work at, with an "edit" button and then a "save" button (or maybe, for the adventurous, an index page with a number of sections - each section a wikipage, er, a page)

and here there's a link to each of the pages of the other states or neighboring counties or whatever, each with a "comment" button and then a "save" button

it would not even look like a wiki, posibly!

but it would be text-only, idea only ... ok, maybe some easy tables with "|" etc

i don't know if it would work - and maybe the software is already there, no?

hey, maybe our communities would use it? ;-)  (and then report on how it goes)

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
what i mean is they don't need to know there's a wiki, just their page and their neighbor's pages
all private except (maybe) for some trusted butterflies who bring issues to the neighbor's attention ... but even that's not strictly needed

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.

[ Parent ]
Hmmm, I see your point.
  Most things have been done but getting trained people together to solve a problem - not putting up a web page for strangers to post random thuoghts.

  This is not a condenation of Wiki - but an attempt to see Wiki's from *their* point of view.

  The hive mind is an alien concept to many.

  Thanks.

Kobie


[ Parent ]
furthering my understanding
is that it's not necessary but considered helpful if CDC gives feedback first.

[ Parent ]
DemFromCt - yea.
DemFromCT,

  Agreed. I assumed and worried there was some CDC editing and approval needed before publication.

  Since states can educate the CDC on their needs and problems it sounds like a good idea. Development rarely if ever happens in a vacume.

  New things fertilze new ideas and solutions. Hence my frustration at being kept in the dark.

  BTW - both my city and the city next door have only said "we have plans that are in draft mode and not ready for publication."

  Keep the lights burning

Kobie


[ Parent ]
Pixie, where are you?
Don't you live in Connecticut?


You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.

give Pixie a bit of time to digest this
she knows about the diary. ;-0

[ Parent ]
Bumped for Pixie n/t


You want perspective. I want perspective. Let's talk. We don't have to agree on every thing. If we do, one of us is redundant.

[ Parent ]
Thanks Dem for the info
It is reassuring that at least they haven't forgotten about their last plan, which is a year+ old now.  I wonder if they will pass something official for the governor to close schools since it doesn't sound like it's completely on teh books.  Better to CYA now than later. 

my guess is that the Governor would take responsibility
for this decision during a real pandemic, and that's likelyt true in every state.

[ Parent ]
As long as there aren't any
squabbles over who gets to do what aka Katrina.  Rell seems pretty well respected and on top of things so hopefully it won't be an issue.  Some other states there could be turf wars. 

[ Parent ]
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